Dawntrail Healers need a rework

[Renathras]

and the lv.50 capstone for SCH if now... sacred soil ?

It's been AGES since ARR but...wasn't this true then? I thought you got Lustrate at level 35-45, somewhere in there? I genuinely don't remember, though.

As for invulns: Bene/Lustrate aren't invulns. They don't prevent death.

And as you note, there are some situations that require Invulns...on Tanks. Meaning....Tanks and Healers are different roles. Entirely the point I was making, yes? (Holy's super useful in PotD as well; I get "Deep Dungeons" has "Dungeon" in the name, but this is more general content like that, Eureka, Bozja, etc). Also, isn't there an Ultimate that requires every party member (including Healers) to LB? I think some people skipped it with raise cheese, but isn't that still a thing somewhere, technically?

I don't get this topic at all, if you don't like not having as many dps tools as a healer, maybe play a DPS instead.
The only change healers actually need is to have Freecure removed to stop baiting sprouts and make Cure (I) and their similar versions change automatically to Cure II and alike as soon as you reach the level for it.
Peace out.

That would be agreeable, and you're right. Though I wouldn't mind SOME Healer Jobs being different for those people that like that (SCH in the ancient past had more going on with its DPS kit) as long as they weren't ALL that way (WHM really did not, and was more comparable in terms of damage buttons to today, depending on how you count Lilies).

I swear every one of you that say this think healers are asking for dps kits level of dps abilities.

SOME people are, and I think more would LIKE to but they recognize it's unrealistic. Like if they could legitimately get a RDM or BLM level of DPSing on SGE, say, they'd probably say "Yes please!" not "No no no, that's too much, please no."

Have you glimpsed the 4.0 healer DPS options that the OP was referring too? Because they're clearly not 'as many dps tools' when compared to those possessed by an actual DPS job.

Hm...now I'm curious...this does entirely depend on which we're referring to, but SCH is probably the correct assumption (WHM has as many damage abilities now as it did in SB, +/-1). What all did SCH have back then?

Broil 2, Ruin 2, Energy Drain, Bio 2 (did it still have Bio 1?), Miasma, Miasma 2, Bane, Fester, Shadowflare, Dissipation (arguably), Chain Stratagem (while a "party buff", this debuff on the target increases the SCH's damage as well and so can be thought of like Presence of Mind, Dreadwyrm Trance, Inner Release, etc). Any others? Oh, it got Art of War in here somewhere...? That's 13.

SMN today has Ruin 3, Ruin 4, Gemshine, Astral Flow, Summon Baha/Phoenix, Enkindle, Summon Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Energy Drain, Fester, Searing Light, Energy Siphon, Painflare, Tri-Disaster, and Precious Brilliance. That's 16, so pretty comparable, especially considering that's pretty much all of SMN's kit while that was less than half of SCH's in SB.

RDM has around 20, depending on how you're counting. MCH around 17. Both of those are somewhat inflated with AOE only attacks (that is, SB SCH used everything other than Art in single target, even Miasma 2; MCH doesn't use Bioblaster and Scattergun/etc, nor RDM Impact/Aero2/Thunder2/Moulinet, nor SMN Energy Siphon, Painflare, Tri-Disaster, and Precious Brilliance in single-target/boss fights, making the gap negligible, and in SMN's case, nonexistent.)

Which is to say, SOME proposals are comparable to DPS Jobs in number of DPS abilities. But they are - to be entirely fair - the minority. Though, again, I think that's more a practical consideration than a desire, as I do think some people would jump at the chance for more DPS buttons than their proposals if offered.

You don't seem to have made an attempt to understand why healers are asking for these changes, that much is clear.

A person can understand the situation and disagree with you at the same time.

Every time someone says this hive mind gunk, I edge just a little closer to the void.

Come now, this place is already an echo chamber.

Remember when I tell you guys I'm not the only one that thinks as I do and you insist I am, as no one who agrees with me posts here? Then when someone who agrees with me posts here, instead of going "Oh, maybe Ren's position is more prevalent than we've been giving it credit", you guys all proceed to quote the person and tell them they're wrong (and several people insulting them along the way)?

Point being: There are people that think this way. It's time to acknowledge it's not just me.

I wasn't going to reply on this thread anymore...

You...pretty much nailed it.

Not trying to push the point, but curious, have you read my posts talking about the "4 Healers Model"? Do you think that might be a good plan?

That's kinda funny, because it's not at all what I'm saying, but it is exactly what you are saying but in another perspective. It's like admitting to it, I guess.
Contrary to what you said, I don't "want" anything, because that's how it already is. I find BLM very annoying to play, yet, even if I may like mages, magic circles, and big explosions, I wouldn't ask for a revamp of the class (let alone the whole magic dps spectrum) because I wasn't having fun playing it, that's just silly.

(I've pointed this out before as well; if we applied people's standards to their own behavior...)

Anyway, personally, I don't think attacking people is the solution - even if it seems some people really ask for it sometimes - instead, trying to understand what people want and offering a compromise to that end.

That's why I proposed the 4 Healers Model in the first place.

I'm with you - I hate BLM, but I'm glad it's in the game for people that like it. I think the game is better when it offers options. If it offers a healer Job that has a DPS kit as one option, that's great, as long as it offers at least one that does not, like the healers now.

I will, thanks!
And if I don't, I'll just switch to some other class I like playing.
Also, wanting SGE to be the DPSy healer is a fair request, that's how they were advertised at first before ending as scholar 2.0 after all. However, OP is calling for changes to the healing spectrum in itself and not just to this class, and you pushed for it with that terrible reasoning, which was the main thing that drove me to post.

YES!

Thank you.

Seriously.

Thank you so much.

It's nice to see there are other people out there that disagree with the prevailing position here. Genuinely appreciate your posts, friend. (Also, you're right about the "because I don't have fun playing it" crowd).

As for AST and DRG: AST has had a rework basically every expansion it's been in the game, and they've apparently decided they need to finally just (most likely) to a top down fix of it all at once to try and hammer out whatever issues they see with it. DRG is on the opposite end of the spectrum, basically "perfect" and they're not sure what to change that won't break it, which apparently means a decision to rework it...though we don't really know what that kind of a rework would be, if it would be a complete restructuring (like SMN) or something more QOL around the edges fixes like some of the NIN changes an expansion ago were.

So, let's take another example. Let's say that you were a car manufacturer. You could make a Prius, or a Yaris, or an Echo. They get the job done, right? They get you where you want to go, they're quite reliable as well - but exciting? Not for me, nor for millions of other car drivers- but there's quite a few people that have bought them.

So what about the people that like their Prius? I still have the little car I bought back in college and drive it from time to time now (would even more if miles and degradation weren't things). We still run into the problem of "some people don't think it's fun, but some people think it's fun".

I'm curious how long you've been around for, the issues people here have with healers started with ShB back when all healers (yes, all) lost DPS spells and their main DoT suddenly went from 18s to 30s

WHM traded Aero 3 for Misery - an upgrade. They "lost" Fluid Aura in EW. And as you note, AST's rotation was the same - what they lost was their different Cards.

NO, every healer SHOULD NOT be changed to have extra DPS options.

SCH? Sure, it was the one healer that actually DID lose a lot of DPS buttons going from SB to ShB.
SGE? Could go either way (the sales pitch was more DPS-y, but conversely, it's only ever existed this way as "the better SCH").
AST? Probably not; most AST players seem to want a Card rework and more buff gameplay, not more DPS buttons.
WHM? No. It didn't lose any from SB to ShB and it actually got better (SB WHM was the WORST incarnation of WHM in all of FFXIV), it needs more work on the healing side (barriers/mitigation) and possibly more frequent interaction with its existing buttons (Assize/Misery[?])

WHM already has something "beyond Glare and Dia".

If healing had always been in the state it's in now, I'd say people clamouring for change would have less justification [less, not none!] but the reason a lot of healers are so unhappy with the state of healing is because it didn't used to be like this.

WHM has been this way since SB, it actually improved into ShB since SB WHM was so bad. AST had this rotation before even WHM did. And healing at one time was GCD focused, not oGCD focused.

If the people asking for change were only talking about SCH (and possibly SGE), I'd agree with you.

Using your example, let's say that 75% of your clients did find it exciting, then what?

That's why I suggest the 4 Healers Model. Give 75% to the 75%, keep 25% for the 25%. Everyone wins.

That'll be it for me. Good luck on your endeavors, thread.

Glad to have you. Feel free to chime in anytime.