Dawntrail Healers need a rework

[Aria1]

Self-entitlement fantasy is "I want healers to be as simple as possible so there's less of a chance that some noob is going to waste my time in DFs and PFs, and I don't care how many players lose their favorite role or playstyle as long as I get what I want."

That's kinda funny, because it's not at all what I'm saying, but it is exactly what you are saying but in another perspective. It's like admitting to it, I guess.
Contrary to what you said, I don't "want" anything, because that's how it already is. I find BLM very annoying to play, yet, even if I may like mages, magic circles, and big explosions, I wouldn't ask for a revamp of the class (let alone the whole magic dps spectrum) because I wasn't having fun playing it, that's just silly.

[ty_taurus]

That's kinda funny, because it's not at all what I'm saying, but it is exactly what you are saying but in another perspective. It's like admitting to it, I guess.
Contrary to what you said, I don't "want" anything, because that's how it already is. I find BLM very annoying to play, yet, even if I may like mages, magic circles, and big explosions, I wouldn't ask for a revamp of the class (let alone the whole magic dps spectrum) because I wasn't having fun playing it, that's just silly.

Yes, me wanting sage to live up to the playstyle it was described as having by Yoshi P himself is exactly the same as someone who thinks if healers get 2-3 new attacks is going to make it exponentially harder for parties to clear anything because most healers are going to start just failing completely I guess.

Have fun with the Dragoon rework.

[IDontPetLalas]

I wasn't going to reply on this thread anymore since my intent here was just give my breadcrumb in a small bubble that likes to enforce... questionable changes, but since you in particular replied, I'll do an additional one.



This comment on the first page of this thread left me in disbelief. If you translate this reasoning to most real life scenarios... well, it won't be good for you. The fact that this comment in particular has so many upvotes shows who are usually (not everyone) the people asking for this type of change. Extremely selfish behavior.

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Someone in the thread also commented about healers having no "skill ceiling" as one of the big things that need change. If you think that, you probably never joined a PF and only plays content with your static. The healers difference in skill level can be ABYSMAL even with today's standards. Do you think it's easy and boring as it is? Well, a lot of people still suck even under these conditions, and even if you think doing more damage is the "fun" you can have as a healer, some people might think otherwise, that's your personal opinion of it. Same vibes as "my AOE is now a circle instead of a cone, game is literally unplayable".

As SweetPete pointed out in the first page,


It's basically this. If people, as it is, can already be terrible playing the job, imagine if it was made more complicated, even slightly. Having a lower entry level for people to get better at playing is better than it being higher and filtering out people. Well, not really filtering, since they'd still be on PF parties but would just be even more terrible at it than they were before. What I could consider a good option is a healer class with more dps options, to satiate this need, instead of revamping the whole healer classes system to conform to the preferences of a small vocal minority that feels "bored" playing healer but for some reason still play it.

So, while I see that your last line is somewhat reasonable, don't you consider it to be somewhat selfish yourself to think that that you're blocking changes to jobs on the potential that some people just might make a mistake? or not want to know how to play their job? It already happens with other jobs- I'm thinking of tanks, specifically, that don't use their mitigation, or cleave the party, - and that doesn't affect their job design. Why the double standard?

Not to mention- you're talking about "filtering people"- they have 90 levels to learn. That's not filtering by that point.

[Shurrikhan]

All I'm saying is that tanks have always dealt damage to keep aggro. So your logic doesn't make sense to me.

To some degree damage was always an option for dealing enmity, but originally their strongest snap-aggro move... dealt no damage; the damage options were only necessary for Tank's "essential" role tasks after running out of MP, and they as easily could have made Flash cost nothing.

Neither role has to require damage dealing to meet their specialized means of improving clear times (mob control and self-sustain; healing and resurrection). Yet, the one gets a compelling kit for any and all situations, while the other's kit is apportioned only to fit situations that are exceedingly rare (most of one's time spent casting heals). The question was why?

[Aria1]

Yes, me wanting sage to live up to the playstyle it was described as having by Yoshi P himself is exactly the same as someone who thinks if healers get 2-3 new attacks is going to make it exponentially harder for parties to clear anything because most healers are going to start just failing completely I guess.

Have fun with the Dragoon rework.

I will, thanks!
And if I don't, I'll just switch to some other class I like playing.
Also, wanting SGE to be the DPSy healer is a fair request, that's how they were advertised at first before ending as scholar 2.0 after all. However, OP is calling for changes to the healing spectrum in itself and not just to this class, and you pushed for it with that terrible reasoning, which was the main thing that drove me to post.

So, while I see that your last line is somewhat reasonable, don't you consider it to be somewhat selfish yourself to think that that you're blocking changes to jobs on the potential that some people just might make a mistake? or not want to know how to play their job? It already happens with other jobs- I'm thinking of tanks, specifically, that don't use their mitigation, or cleave the party, - and that doesn't affect their job design. Why the double standard?

Not to mention- you're talking about "filtering people"- they have 90 levels to learn. That's not filtering by that point.

That depends on a particular point, which is: Why are these changes being called?
The majority of the replies and reasoning given is that it is "because it's boring", or "because I don't have fun playing it" or "I want more button to press on downtime!". That means this is being called because of some whim of certain people. It's not a balancing issue, it's not a mechanical issue, the healers, as it is, have no intrinsic issue to justify reworking the whole healing class spectrum. If you were the game lead, would you risk applying changes like this that would affect the entirety of the player population because of such frivolous reasons of a few people?
That said, I also don't understand the reasoning behind AST and DRG rework, but if the dev team thought it was due there's probably a good reason behind it besides "it's boring".

[IDontPetLalas]

I will, thanks!
And if I don't, I'll just switch to some other class I like playing.
Also, wanting SGE to be the DPSy healer is a fair request, that's how they were advertised at first before ending as scholar 2.0 after all. However, OP is calling for changes to the healing spectrum in itself and not just to this class, and you pushed for it with that terrible reasoning, which was the main thing that drove me to post.



That depends on a particular point, which is: Why are these changes being called?
The majority of the replies and reasoning given is that it is "because it's boring", or "because I don't have fun playing it" or "I want more button to press on downtime!". That means this is being called because of some whim of certain people. It's not a balancing issue, it's not a mechanical issue, the healers, as it is, have no intrinsic issue to justify reworking the whole healing class spectrum. If you were the game lead, would you risk applying changes like this that would affect the entirety of the player population because of such frivolous reasons of a few people?
That said, I also don't understand the reasoning behind AST and DRG rework, but if the dev team thought it was due there's probably a good reason behind it besides "it's boring".

"The majority of the replies and reasoning given is that it is "because it's boring", or "because I don't have fun playing it" or "I want more button to press on downtime!". That means this is being called because of some whim of certain people. It's not a balancing issue, it's not a mechanical issue, the healers, as it is, have no intrinsic issue to justify reworking the whole healing class spectrum. If you were the game lead, would you risk applying changes like this that would affect the entirety of the player population because of such frivolous reasons of a few people?"

So, let's take another example. Let's say that you were a car manufacturer. You could make a Prius, or a Yaris, or an Echo. They get the job done, right? They get you where you want to go, they're quite reliable as well - but exciting? Not for me, nor for millions of other car drivers- but there's quite a few people that have bought them.

So this is why any job deserves and should be re-examined when people rightfully provide their feedback, saying that it isn't fun. No one should dismiss or demean them by stating that their opinions are "frivolous' or that certain people have "whims", unless you have some secret knowledge as to their reasoning (which I seriously doubt) their motivations are as deserving as anyone else, to believe otherwise is extremely divisive not to mention presumptuous.

[TheDustyOne]

I'm curious how long you've been around for, the issues people here have with healers started with ShB back when all healers (yes, all) lost DPS spells and their main DoT suddenly went from 18s to 30s, effectively meaning that they now spam their singular nuke 12 times before pressing their singular DoT. Only AST had the 30s DoT + nuke, and even then they had a more involved card system than currently.

Imagine for a moment that WAR lost the Beast Gauge, Infuriate, Primal Rend, Inner Release was put into a 120s cooldown and only did guaranteed crits on the basic combos, leaving them with just the Storms Path combo, Storms Eye combos and Upheaval, how many Warriors would be upset with that? How angry would they then be if they were told by players (especially ones that came after the fact) that "you're a tank, not a DPS, if you don't like it swap to a DPS". If you think that's unfair, now think about SCH, who lost Miasma, Shadowflare, Miasma II, Selenes kit, Bane, and are now effectively holding on to Energy Drain for dear life, and are now being told "you're a healer, not a DPS, swap to a DPS if you don't like it". Even WHM lost Aero III, and you're telling them that they somehow deserved to lose it because they had the temerity, the GALL, to play a healer?

Yes, EVERY healer should be changed to have extra DPS options, WHM included. If WAR can have a skill ceiling and still remain simple to play, WHM can have something beyond Glare and Dia. Singling out one healer and going "well that one can be an exception" isn't fair to the other healers also asking for more. Also, if "because it's boring" isn't a valid excuse, then please never design a game, justifying why something should remain boring doesn't go down well most of the time, and of course it's a mechanical issue, we don't care about doing more damage overall, we could deal less than currently and be happy if it was spread out over 5 spells instead of 2. And I'd happily "risk" applying these changes because it's only bringing back the status quo that HW and SB set. ShB was the risk that didn't pay off.

[OgruMogru]

If healing had always been in the state it's in now, I'd say people clamouring for change would have less justification [less, not none!] but the reason a lot of healers are so unhappy with the state of healing is because it didn't used to be like this. The devs have been slowly chipping away at the healer role for years at this point and the healer playerbase at large has been complaining or [very constructively[ critiquing the changes that have been made the entire time these changes have been implemented, the devs just do not listen. This has been an issue for years it's not just some "whim" lmao. The AST buff bribes in HW, the state of WHM, sch having their kit deleted, energy drain being removed and re-added, SGE not living up to it's "DPS centric" kit. Every time I see someone digging their heels in over the direction healers going being a good thing then I can't help but assume they're either covering for their own insecurities over their skill level, or they're selfishly concerned with how healer players enjoyment will affect moron dps [said as a moron dps myself]

If the changes are made to motivate more people to play healer, there needs to be a healer strike! Let the playerbase really experience what it's like when all the good healers get chased away and we're all left at the mercy of all the bads the changes are supposed to be for.

[ty_taurus]

...and you pushed for it with that terrible reasoning, which was the main thing that drove me to post.

You're playing an online game where your victory is dependent on other people's performance. That is the nature of online games, and trying to railroad players into playing correctly by erasing every possible "wrong" answer is a horrible mentality that suffocates the gameplay experience. If you don't like the idea that you will lose some fights because of someone else's mistake, there are single player RPGs that have existed for decades where the only person responsible is yourself. I worded it crudely because I'm beyond fed up with this mentality that curbing gameplay to force other players to perform better by proxy so that we experience less failure is actually a good thing.

But then again, this is FFXIV where apparently what we want is the world the Nibiruns created from Endwalker's story: a world so void of failure, friction, conflict, sadness, and anger that the joys and victories we experience are so empty and hollow that we literally pray for death to take us and free us from apathy. "Can someone please get hit by something so I have a reason to heal?"

[Aria1]

So this is why any job deserves and should be re-examined when people rightfully provide their feedback, saying that it isn't fun. No one should dismiss or demean them by stating that their opinions are "frivolous' or that certain people have "whims", unless you have some secret knowledge as to their reasoning (which I seriously doubt) their motivations are as deserving as anyone else, to believe otherwise is extremely divisive not to mention presumptuous.

I see your point, but I'm still not able to completely agree, and I think that's fine.
Using your example, let's say that 75% of your clients did find it exciting, then what? How would you justify changing it, if your main clients do have fun driving them around? If you change it, you might risk just going bankrupt. Of course that's not the case with FFXIV, but it shows my point of view, I guess. "Fun" and "Boring" are subjective concepts. For instance, in moba games people can lose a match and say "hey, we lost but I had fun!" while someone else was fuming because they have fun winning, and not losing. Some people I know, for instance, have fun mapping and pre-planning their big heal cds throughout a savage fight and executing it, and don't care as much about having to press only 2 DPS buttons (this doesn't mean I don't support healers doing dps, it's just an example of subjective fun), unlike the people on this thread, which clearly do care about and want more buttons to press.
So how would you go about it? Do you trample over what this part of the players want, or do you trample over that other part to implement the changes? It's a more complicated matter than I thought at first, I'll concede on that.
To me it still ends up being a matter of reasons given as I mentioned, and such subjective reasons can't be weighted properly, as something could be not fun for you but fun for someone else, boring for you and not boring for someone else.

But then again, this is FFXIV where apparently what we want is the world the Nibiruns created from Endwalker's story: a world so void of failure, friction, conflict, sadness, and anger that the joys and victories we experience are so empty and hollow that we literally pray for death to take us and free us from apathy. "Can someone please get hit by something so I have a reason to heal?"

I don't get where are you getting that this is what I'm saying. If that was what I wanted, I'd ask for SE to make Veraero and Verdark being unusable until the RDM used Jolt first (yes, gutting it on precast), since I've seen quite a few 90 RDMs hardcasting those throughout dungeons and trials. Also to remove Ice from BLMs so I don't see any more ice-only BLMs on later level roulettes. Stuff like that, but I really don't care about how long I take to clear a dungeon or trial, and I still don't know why do you think I do.

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That'll be it for me. Good luck on your endeavors, thread.