Dawntrail Healers need a rework

[Aria1]

So this is why any job deserves and should be re-examined when people rightfully provide their feedback, saying that it isn't fun. No one should dismiss or demean them by stating that their opinions are "frivolous' or that certain people have "whims", unless you have some secret knowledge as to their reasoning (which I seriously doubt) their motivations are as deserving as anyone else, to believe otherwise is extremely divisive not to mention presumptuous.

I see your point, but I'm still not able to completely agree, and I think that's fine.
Using your example, let's say that 75% of your clients did find it exciting, then what? How would you justify changing it, if your main clients do have fun driving them around? If you change it, you might risk just going bankrupt. Of course that's not the case with FFXIV, but it shows my point of view, I guess. "Fun" and "Boring" are subjective concepts. For instance, in moba games people can lose a match and say "hey, we lost but I had fun!" while someone else was fuming because they have fun winning, and not losing. Some people I know, for instance, have fun mapping and pre-planning their big heal cds throughout a savage fight and executing it, and don't care as much about having to press only 2 DPS buttons (this doesn't mean I don't support healers doing dps, it's just an example of subjective fun), unlike the people on this thread, which clearly do care about and want more buttons to press.
So how would you go about it? Do you trample over what this part of the players want, or do you trample over that other part to implement the changes? It's a more complicated matter than I thought at first, I'll concede on that.
To me it still ends up being a matter of reasons given as I mentioned, and such subjective reasons can't be weighted properly, as something could be not fun for you but fun for someone else, boring for you and not boring for someone else.

But then again, this is FFXIV where apparently what we want is the world the Nibiruns created from Endwalker's story: a world so void of failure, friction, conflict, sadness, and anger that the joys and victories we experience are so empty and hollow that we literally pray for death to take us and free us from apathy. "Can someone please get hit by something so I have a reason to heal?"

I don't get where are you getting that this is what I'm saying. If that was what I wanted, I'd ask for SE to make Veraero and Verdark being unusable until the RDM used Jolt first (yes, gutting it on precast), since I've seen quite a few 90 RDMs hardcasting those throughout dungeons and trials. Also to remove Ice from BLMs so I don't see any more ice-only BLMs on later level roulettes. Stuff like that, but I really don't care about how long I take to clear a dungeon or trial, and I still don't know why do you think I do.

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That'll be it for me. Good luck on your endeavors, thread.

[Renathras]

and the lv.50 capstone for SCH if now... sacred soil ?

It's been AGES since ARR but...wasn't this true then? I thought you got Lustrate at level 35-45, somewhere in there? I genuinely don't remember, though.

As for invulns: Bene/Lustrate aren't invulns. They don't prevent death.

And as you note, there are some situations that require Invulns...on Tanks. Meaning....Tanks and Healers are different roles. Entirely the point I was making, yes? (Holy's super useful in PotD as well; I get "Deep Dungeons" has "Dungeon" in the name, but this is more general content like that, Eureka, Bozja, etc). Also, isn't there an Ultimate that requires every party member (including Healers) to LB? I think some people skipped it with raise cheese, but isn't that still a thing somewhere, technically?

I don't get this topic at all, if you don't like not having as many dps tools as a healer, maybe play a DPS instead.
The only change healers actually need is to have Freecure removed to stop baiting sprouts and make Cure (I) and their similar versions change automatically to Cure II and alike as soon as you reach the level for it.
Peace out.

That would be agreeable, and you're right. Though I wouldn't mind SOME Healer Jobs being different for those people that like that (SCH in the ancient past had more going on with its DPS kit) as long as they weren't ALL that way (WHM really did not, and was more comparable in terms of damage buttons to today, depending on how you count Lilies).

I swear every one of you that say this think healers are asking for dps kits level of dps abilities.

SOME people are, and I think more would LIKE to but they recognize it's unrealistic. Like if they could legitimately get a RDM or BLM level of DPSing on SGE, say, they'd probably say "Yes please!" not "No no no, that's too much, please no."

Have you glimpsed the 4.0 healer DPS options that the OP was referring too? Because they're clearly not 'as many dps tools' when compared to those possessed by an actual DPS job.

Hm...now I'm curious...this does entirely depend on which we're referring to, but SCH is probably the correct assumption (WHM has as many damage abilities now as it did in SB, +/-1). What all did SCH have back then?

Broil 2, Ruin 2, Energy Drain, Bio 2 (did it still have Bio 1?), Miasma, Miasma 2, Bane, Fester, Shadowflare, Dissipation (arguably), Chain Stratagem (while a "party buff", this debuff on the target increases the SCH's damage as well and so can be thought of like Presence of Mind, Dreadwyrm Trance, Inner Release, etc). Any others? Oh, it got Art of War in here somewhere...? That's 13.

SMN today has Ruin 3, Ruin 4, Gemshine, Astral Flow, Summon Baha/Phoenix, Enkindle, Summon Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Energy Drain, Fester, Searing Light, Energy Siphon, Painflare, Tri-Disaster, and Precious Brilliance. That's 16, so pretty comparable, especially considering that's pretty much all of SMN's kit while that was less than half of SCH's in SB.

RDM has around 20, depending on how you're counting. MCH around 17. Both of those are somewhat inflated with AOE only attacks (that is, SB SCH used everything other than Art in single target, even Miasma 2; MCH doesn't use Bioblaster and Scattergun/etc, nor RDM Impact/Aero2/Thunder2/Moulinet, nor SMN Energy Siphon, Painflare, Tri-Disaster, and Precious Brilliance in single-target/boss fights, making the gap negligible, and in SMN's case, nonexistent.)

Which is to say, SOME proposals are comparable to DPS Jobs in number of DPS abilities. But they are - to be entirely fair - the minority. Though, again, I think that's more a practical consideration than a desire, as I do think some people would jump at the chance for more DPS buttons than their proposals if offered.

You don't seem to have made an attempt to understand why healers are asking for these changes, that much is clear.

A person can understand the situation and disagree with you at the same time.

Every time someone says this hive mind gunk, I edge just a little closer to the void.

Come now, this place is already an echo chamber.

Remember when I tell you guys I'm not the only one that thinks as I do and you insist I am, as no one who agrees with me posts here? Then when someone who agrees with me posts here, instead of going "Oh, maybe Ren's position is more prevalent than we've been giving it credit", you guys all proceed to quote the person and tell them they're wrong (and several people insulting them along the way)?

Point being: There are people that think this way. It's time to acknowledge it's not just me.

I wasn't going to reply on this thread anymore...

You...pretty much nailed it.

Not trying to push the point, but curious, have you read my posts talking about the "4 Healers Model"? Do you think that might be a good plan?

That's kinda funny, because it's not at all what I'm saying, but it is exactly what you are saying but in another perspective. It's like admitting to it, I guess.
Contrary to what you said, I don't "want" anything, because that's how it already is. I find BLM very annoying to play, yet, even if I may like mages, magic circles, and big explosions, I wouldn't ask for a revamp of the class (let alone the whole magic dps spectrum) because I wasn't having fun playing it, that's just silly.

(I've pointed this out before as well; if we applied people's standards to their own behavior...)

Anyway, personally, I don't think attacking people is the solution - even if it seems some people really ask for it sometimes - instead, trying to understand what people want and offering a compromise to that end.

That's why I proposed the 4 Healers Model in the first place.

I'm with you - I hate BLM, but I'm glad it's in the game for people that like it. I think the game is better when it offers options. If it offers a healer Job that has a DPS kit as one option, that's great, as long as it offers at least one that does not, like the healers now.

I will, thanks!
And if I don't, I'll just switch to some other class I like playing.
Also, wanting SGE to be the DPSy healer is a fair request, that's how they were advertised at first before ending as scholar 2.0 after all. However, OP is calling for changes to the healing spectrum in itself and not just to this class, and you pushed for it with that terrible reasoning, which was the main thing that drove me to post.

YES!

Thank you.

Seriously.

Thank you so much.

It's nice to see there are other people out there that disagree with the prevailing position here. Genuinely appreciate your posts, friend. (Also, you're right about the "because I don't have fun playing it" crowd).

As for AST and DRG: AST has had a rework basically every expansion it's been in the game, and they've apparently decided they need to finally just (most likely) to a top down fix of it all at once to try and hammer out whatever issues they see with it. DRG is on the opposite end of the spectrum, basically "perfect" and they're not sure what to change that won't break it, which apparently means a decision to rework it...though we don't really know what that kind of a rework would be, if it would be a complete restructuring (like SMN) or something more QOL around the edges fixes like some of the NIN changes an expansion ago were.

So, let's take another example. Let's say that you were a car manufacturer. You could make a Prius, or a Yaris, or an Echo. They get the job done, right? They get you where you want to go, they're quite reliable as well - but exciting? Not for me, nor for millions of other car drivers- but there's quite a few people that have bought them.

So what about the people that like their Prius? I still have the little car I bought back in college and drive it from time to time now (would even more if miles and degradation weren't things). We still run into the problem of "some people don't think it's fun, but some people think it's fun".

I'm curious how long you've been around for, the issues people here have with healers started with ShB back when all healers (yes, all) lost DPS spells and their main DoT suddenly went from 18s to 30s

WHM traded Aero 3 for Misery - an upgrade. They "lost" Fluid Aura in EW. And as you note, AST's rotation was the same - what they lost was their different Cards.

NO, every healer SHOULD NOT be changed to have extra DPS options.

SCH? Sure, it was the one healer that actually DID lose a lot of DPS buttons going from SB to ShB.
SGE? Could go either way (the sales pitch was more DPS-y, but conversely, it's only ever existed this way as "the better SCH").
AST? Probably not; most AST players seem to want a Card rework and more buff gameplay, not more DPS buttons.
WHM? No. It didn't lose any from SB to ShB and it actually got better (SB WHM was the WORST incarnation of WHM in all of FFXIV), it needs more work on the healing side (barriers/mitigation) and possibly more frequent interaction with its existing buttons (Assize/Misery[?])

WHM already has something "beyond Glare and Dia".

If healing had always been in the state it's in now, I'd say people clamouring for change would have less justification [less, not none!] but the reason a lot of healers are so unhappy with the state of healing is because it didn't used to be like this.

WHM has been this way since SB, it actually improved into ShB since SB WHM was so bad. AST had this rotation before even WHM did. And healing at one time was GCD focused, not oGCD focused.

If the people asking for change were only talking about SCH (and possibly SGE), I'd agree with you.

Using your example, let's say that 75% of your clients did find it exciting, then what?

That's why I suggest the 4 Healers Model. Give 75% to the 75%, keep 25% for the 25%. Everyone wins.

That'll be it for me. Good luck on your endeavors, thread.

Glad to have you. Feel free to chime in anytime.

[Calysto]

It's been AGES since ARR but...wasn't this true then? I thought you got Lustrate at level 35-45, somewhere in there? I genuinely don't remember, though.

As for invulns: Bene/Lustrate aren't invulns. They don't prevent death.

And as you note, there are some situations that require Invulns...on Tanks. Meaning....Tanks and Healers are different roles. Entirely the point I was making, yes? (Holy's super useful in PotD as well; I get "Deep Dungeons" has "Dungeon" in the name, but this is more general content like that, Eureka, Bozja, etc). Also, isn't there an Ultimate that requires every party member (including Healers) to LB? I think some people skipped it with raise cheese, but isn't that still a thing somewhere, technically?

I had to check too after you sad that. Yes, it was 50, but it seems it was only 20% hp, not 30% ; my memory isn't perfect either.
And yes, they aren't Invuln, yet they are/were power move that feel/felt good to use.
The point about LB was more of a "why can't we have those things ?" rant (and I don't remember any fight like the fight ; maybe AV or WoL ?)

[ForsakenRoe]

I thought you got Lustrate at level 35-45, somewhere in there? I genuinely don't remember, though.

SOME people are, and I think more would LIKE to but they recognize it's unrealistic. Like if they could legitimately get a RDM or BLM level of DPSing on SGE, say, they'd probably say "Yes please!" not "No no no, that's too much, please no."

Bio 2 (did it still have Bio 1?)
Any others? Oh, it got Art of War in here somewhere...?
that is, SB SCH used everything other than Art in single target, even Miasma 2;

So what about the people that like their Prius? I still have the little car I bought back in college and drive it from time to time now (would even more if miles and degradation weren't things). We still run into the problem of "some people don't think it's fun, but some people think it's fun".

WHM traded Aero 3 for Misery - an upgrade. They "lost" Fluid Aura in EW. And as you note, AST's rotation was the same - what they lost was their different Cards.

50. It was the original capstone until EW. At which point SE must have got the memo that '10% DR' is probably not as useful in AV/Dzemael compared to 'instant 600p heal'.

I would say 'oh okay'. If it is an actual RDM/BLM level of DPSing (eg you have to juggle RDM's rotation while also keeping up on healing required), I'd say 'this seems a bit excessive' but I wouldn't be posting on the forums about it, better to spend my time learning how to use it. It sounds like it'd take some time to master, which is more than can be said for the current healers.

In order: No, it did not have Bio1 in SB, it upgraded into Bio2. No, it did not get AOW, it had Miasma2 for AOE. When M2 was removed in SHB, they replaced it with AOW. You also listed Bane for SB SCH, that was not used in ST. Also, saying 'Chain buffs SCH's damage too, so you can think of it like DWT or IR' and then not saying the same for SMN's raidbuff, Searing Light, is very strange behaviour. Nobody looks at Chain as 'SCH's IR', that has to be one of the most bizarre takes I've seen yet

You can drive your Prius at a high speed if you wanted to (within speed limits, don't get a ticket). What you ask for one of the four healers is 'hard-limit it's speed limit to 50mph, because some people like driving at a max of 50mph'. If we want to go on the motorways/freeway and drive at a faster speed, we're not allowed. We can go 70mph over here in GB on motorways, but by your 4 healers rot we'd be forced to go 50mph in one of the four offered 'cars', even when we're skilled enough and willing to go 70mph. I want to have the option, regardless of what car I'm driving, to drive at the speed I want to without any goofy restrictions by the manufacturer, and to be able to have the freedom to do Initial D drifts (I wouldn't on actual roads, illegal, but on private land is fair game over here)

Aero3 was a damage gain over Stone4. Misery is only a damage gain over the Glares it cost to use, if you put it in raidbuffs. You have a very different definition of 'upgrade'. This is your hatred of DOTs at work again. Also, WHM 'lost' Fluid Aura in SB when it's damage was removed, 'lost' it again in SHB when they removed the knockback (turning it into just a shortrange bind), and then fully 'lost' it in EW when it was removed entirely. A several stage process, but it's the first one that hits the hardest, changing it from a move we used regularly for damage, to a 'well I'll use it to shunt a caster into the pack', and then into 'I only use it in deep dungeons' before finally getting taken out back to be Ol' Yeller'd

ASTs rotation was the current one-DOT-one-nuke in SB yes. Putting aside the fact it had two DOTs in HW, the reason for that is because it had card stuff to do. It justified the simpler damage rotation, by way of having an additional system to interact with. Now WHM has that same rotation, but doesn't have the extra system like Cards to justify it. If we had an additional system for WHM, with as much depth as Cards, then it'd justify it's current rotation somewhat. But we don't, so it feels hollow and devoid of depth

I had to check too after you sad that. Yes, it was 50, but it seems it was only 20% hp, not 30%

I've heard it was 25% on release

[ty_taurus]

SOME people are, and I think more would LIKE to but they recognize it's unrealistic. Like if they could legitimately get a RDM or BLM level of DPSing on SGE, say, they'd probably say "Yes please!" not "No no no, that's too much, please no."

I mean for my part, no, not really. There's not enough space to have a full DPS Role level rotation on a healer because they need to dedicate a fair chunk of their hotbar to healing. That's kind of the point of healers. It would feel way too cluttered. I wouldn't be complaining about it on the forums, like what Roe said, but I have never asked for, nor am I looking for a completely established caster DPS that also has all of a healer's kit. It's why I reference the tanks as being a comparison point rather than the caster DPS, even though I think the actual DPS gameplay would feel closer to the caster DPS roles in terms of how the different attacks flow together, or at least a caster DPS lite.

[IDontPetLalas]

I mean for my part, no, not really. There's not enough space to have a full DPS Role level rotation on a healer because they need to dedicate a fair chunk of their hotbar to healing. That's kind of the point of healers. It would feel way too cluttered. I wouldn't be complaining about it on the forums, like what Roe said, but I have never asked for, nor am I looking for a completely established caster DPS that also has all of a healer's kit. It's why I reference the tanks as being a comparison point rather than the caster DPS, even though I think the actual DPS gameplay would feel closer to the caster DPS roles in terms of how the different attacks flow together, or at least a caster DPS lite.

Agreed, I can't think of anyone that has asked for, nor even implied , that they would want a full DPS rotation, not even for SGE, where I would expect that to crop up. As you say, the sweet spot is closer to what tanks have.

Whether someone wants to use them or not is up to them, as ForesakenRoe has pointed out quite eloquently, no matter which model of car you opt for, you can drive as slowly as you want to, however I've yet to meet someone who who buy a car that has an upper limit of, say- 50 km/hr (that's 30 miles/hr).

So I don't see why the same concept cannot be applied to all healers. I still fail to see why someone would want to resist changes to a specific healer, as it's been pointed out numerous times it isn't as though it would block them from performing their role.

[Aravell]

Agreed, I can't think of anyone that has asked for, nor even implied , that they would want a full DPS rotation, not even for SGE, where I would expect that to crop up. As you say, the sweet spot is closer to what tanks have.

The only time I've seen the DPS jobs mentioned is when people say WHM should take from BLM, although I've never seen people say WHM should become BLM with healing spells, mostly people say that WHM could learn from the proc system that BLM has.

[ForsakenRoe]

as opposed to "this mechanic is happening when I'm glaring/broiling....but I'm ALWAYS broiling or glaring or dosising or maleficing, has it been 3 minutes or 6? Where are we? Are we there yet?"

I've said before and I'll say again: I'm pretty sure I've gotten worse at DOT timer refreshing since SHB removed all the DOTs. The supposed 'change to make it easier to manage DOTs' (by packaging them all into one) has actually done the opposite for me, and made it harder for me to remember to check if they need refreshing. Because between each DOT refresh now is ELEVEN other GCDs.

The only time I've seen the DPS jobs mentioned is when people say WHM should take from BLM, although I've never seen people say WHM should become BLM with healing spells, mostly people say that WHM could learn from the proc system that BLM has.

I think it's been used at times to refer to BLM's comparative lack of mobility (or, perceived lack) compared to it's counterparts, to allude to a WHM where it has to stay still and 'turret' to do optimal damage. The old SHB version kind of had this, where it had 2.5s cast times and so movement was much harder to deal with. Lilies helped but were a damage loss (though not as much as completely dropping the GCD)

I don't think I want BLM-on-WHM. I don't think Dia-cloud procs will make WHM 'engaging' enough to solve it's issues. It'd help, but I don't think it's enough. We all know what I'd want. Apparently that'd make WHM more complex than SMN. Well, if that's the case, then it just shows how done dirty SMN is right now

[OgruMogru]

I've said before and I'll say again: I'm pretty sure I've gotten worse at DOT timer refreshing since SHB removed all the DOTs. The supposed 'change to make it easier to manage DOTs' (by packaging them all into one) has actually done the opposite for me, and made it harder for me to remember to check if they need refreshing. Because between each DOT refresh now is ELEVEN other GCDs.

Exactly this! Just completely unengaging. I've been playing since Jan 2015 and even though I'm not a healer player, my partner is and we've done everything together so even though I don't feel confident making comments or suggestions on specific skills or potencies [it's why I make dumb suggestions like making overheal beneficial or making shields apply damage to the boss like wildfire when they pop] I can still see the effect the changes are having. The boredom and frustration, it really sucks!

[TheDustyOne]

I've said before and I'll say again: I'm pretty sure I've gotten worse at DOT timer refreshing since SHB removed all the DOTs. The supposed 'change to make it easier to manage DOTs' (by packaging them all into one) has actually done the opposite for me, and made it harder for me to remember to check if they need refreshing. Because between each DOT refresh now is ELEVEN other GCDs.

Same honestly, I also hate the change to BRD DoTs and songs being 45s because of it. I'm now spamming Burst Shot more times than Glare, only being broken up by the Refulgent proc.

I don't think I want BLM-on-WHM.

I must now finish my meme theorycraft, it will be glorious.