For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Renathras]

Yeah. I know it would be murder for balance, but I think if FFXIV actually added an actually Support role and designed around it, it would fix a lot of problems.

Hell, even without that, if they were just less RIGID about the combat system and role system where it's good. They have this weird thing where they don't want anyone coloring outside the lines...but then you have WAR and it's like "Dude's doodling all over the PAGE...and the wall...and the ceiling..."

Personally I like the way SMN does it. It's there in case of emergencies, but requires a fairly significant trade-off to use, especially more than once in a minute. BLU is another case, but I feel like the CD on Angel's Whisper is a bit TOO long. I think it's nice there are Jobs that can do back-up raising or raise the Healer. Always feel better in a 4 man if there's a DPS that can raise. I mean, now Tanks can solo bosses (not you, DRK!), but once upon a time, if the Healer went down at 20% or more, it was a wipe, which is kind of a lot of stress on that single point of failure. Instead of making Tanks unkillable, having some DPS able to limited raise was a nicer solution. It's not always there, though..but it's nice when it is, I guess?

I dunno. I don't think it's bad, I do think it's part of the role/encounter systems needing tweaked, though.

[ASkellington]

snip

AST had Time Dilation. Something that has been repeatedly asked to come back since Shb's destruction of the class. A "SLOW" if you will on buffs (buff extender). A lot of its current skills (See A. Helios and Benefic along with Macrocosmos) also have time like effects. The point I'm making here is Gravity could have a slow applied to it. Haste is technically Light Speed. (And crappy Astrodyne applies a haste to AST). And old cards had a Sksp and SpS Haste upon allies (current PvP Arrow IS a movement speed buff) I see no reason to have Time Mage the dps when we have Time Mage the healer - AST minus cards (or even with cards).

And again we have GEO the Healer I see no reason to have it as a DPS. That's my personal take on it. Nothing new to me is being introduced, and it literally reads as: Oh WHM no longer has Earth/Water/Air-Wind associated? Lets give it to a new DPS and say that it now reflects BLM despite CNJ and BLM having a tied history and there is 0 reason to not give earth/wind/water damaging spells or even non-damaging buffs/debuffs to WHM (like Quake, Flood).

As for the quotes, I'm not going to repeat the lv60-70 questline to find them because effectively we're saying the same thing: lore isn't a reason why GEO can't exist. This quote from the wiki I think suffices enough:

Geomancy is a Far Eastern art of reading the future, with many similarities to the arts of the Astrologian. Instead of reading the stars, Geomancers read the movements of the earth and water.

Frankly GEO would be an off shoot of AST (not CNJ) but since SE doesn't want to make dual classes like SCH/SMN your reasoning of linking it to CNJ is fine.

Once again, I agree lore isn't a good reason (lore didn't save AST after all) but what would GEO be bringing different that WHM cannot other than be a full DPS class? I'd rather have something else or a Druid like class where one can shapeshift or a whole nother class who doesn't have a similar feel to it.

Edit: I should add that adding in things like GEO and TIM further limit what they can do with WHM and AST respectively hence why I'm against their existence. Especially Time Mage. It has 0 reason to exist. We have a buffing class that can and previous DID apply some of the effects Time Mage can and would use.

We REALLY need to fix some of the current classes in the game before we add more classes that can limit what fixes can be done simply because they share a similar theme.

Edit2: Also yes please add Vermedica to RDM and maybe one other heal. I will play that over any of the current healers, because at the very least, MP management is back and I have no excess healing that's not being used instead of giving me buffs, debuffs, simple class thematic extra dps buttons (1-2-3 unbroken by heals rotation or not) or a combination of all three.

[ForsakenRoe]

damn, thought I had posted my post but it was left just before posting and Skel beat me to it, oh well

I'm going to have to check the cutscenes again, but I'd like the exact quotes, if you can provide them.

GEO "mirroring the constellations" is still channeling the power of the earth/this planet/Star. Unless the quote says they are not?


AST was never a Time Mage. It was a FFXIV original (sorta, you can debatably argue it was a guest character in FFTactics, but it was really nothing like him, either) with a few spells that modified durations of other spells and it had Gravity (debatably Demi, but not Comet or Meteor). Also didn't have a Haste, Slow, or Stop spell, the staples of a Time Mage (and no, Time Mages don't do it through Arcanum), Reflect, or Regen (also sometimes associated with Time Magic).

The fight against Gaia (the first one) in Eden is more a Time Mage than AST ever was.

All I know for GEO/AST is that GEO uses this star, AST uses 'the other stars'. Whether AST refers to 'star' as in planets, or stars in the sense we know them (light/heat emitting balls of gas), IDK. But the fact is, geomancy is stated to synergize very well with Nocturnal Astromancy (now retconned to 'aspected heal casts' cos they removed the sect). Back when I did the questline, I strengthened a Geomantic barrier by using my own barrier magic. Beyond the fact that this implies, very strongly, that GEO/AST magics are closely related (if the narrative followed gameplay mechanics, I'd have overwritten his barrier cos Nocturnal Field/Galvanize don't stack lmao), it also tells me that 'why would GEO be a DPS?' I can't see why a class, so focused on 'reform a barrier to protect a city' in the story we've seen for it so far, would be a DPS, either. If anything it sounds most like a healer, but the 'protect allies' aspect of it could be more a Tank too. It'd make sense for a healer (AST) to synergize well with a tank (GEO) too.

And for AST's time mage style moves, you had Haste (Arrow), Quicken (old Spear), literally a move called Gravity (which in PVP had a 'current HP % removal' effect iirc), Stella (movespeed slow), Disable (Old/stat reduction), Stop (Celestial Opposition extending allies and stunning enemies was functionally 'stop', and was learned from the quest where an NPC literally uses a time stop move), and Regen as an effect is on Aspected Helios/Benefic. If you wanna take the cards out because... whatever reason, you still have like 5 other 'time mage' themed things

[ty_taurus]

For a while, it was a popular theory that GEO would’ve been the first casting tank, casing barriers on themselves to reduce damage and having a way to nullify interruption.

I don’t think, given the lore we already have, that GEO “must” be a healer per say, because you can be creative with our existing lore or introduce a subset of Geomancers from Meracydia or something, but I also don’t feel it seems connected to the DPS role either.

[vetch]

For a while, it was a popular theory that GEO would’ve been the first casting tank, casing barriers on themselves to reduce damage and having a way to nullify interruption.

I don’t think, given the lore we already have, that GEO “must” be a healer per say, because you can be creative with our existing lore or introduce a subset of Geomancers from Meracydia or something, but I also don’t feel it seems connected to the DPS role either.

Inherently connected to the DPS role by virtue of DPS being the only role the developers know how to design for anymore.

[LilimoLimomo]

...what do you like about those Jobs?

Sure sure, "more damage buttons/rotation", but is that it, or is there something more that could be incorporated into Healers? Mobility? Utility? Buffs? Melee attacks?

The reason DPS is enjoyable isn't because it has more buttons or a rotation; it's enjoyable because there's a problem you need to solve — get the enemies dead — and the buttons you have give the player an enjoyable way to accomplish that task. The problem DPS players set out to solve lasts for the entire duration of the fight, so they always have something to do, and are thus always engaged.

In contrast, Healers are tasked with a problem to solve — keep the party alive — and are given a bunch of neat abilities with which to do that. However, that problem rarely exists. A tank buster happens? Pop a quick heal, the problem is solved. A party-wide damage effect occurs? Pop an AoE heal, the problem is solved. That's about 10% of the fight, and for the rest of it you're sitting there, pressing /ac Stone ad infinitum, hoping with all your heart that someone stands in an orange spot so that you have anything to do with your vast array of toys.

It wasn't always like this. I remember maining WHM in past expansions and rarely feeling like I had the bandwidth to use DPS spells, because the majority of the time I needed to be healing. Somewhere along the line, the balance of the game shifted and healers became vestigial. This isn't a problem that can be fixed by giving healers more buttons, but rather a problem that can only be addressed via the balance of the game itself.

[Renathras]

AST had Time Dilation. Something that has been repeatedly asked to come back since Shb's destruction of the class. A "SLOW" if you will on buffs (buff extender). A lot of its current skills (See A. Helios and Benefic along with Macrocosmos) also have time like effects. The point I'm making here is Gravity could have a slow applied to it. Haste is technically Light Speed.

When AST can cast Haste on other people, Slow on enemies, and Comet, then we'll be talking Time Mage. AST has never been - and likely never will be since most of those components (old Arrow) have been stripped away anyhow - a Time Mage, and no amount of saying so will change that.

As for "as a DPS"; again, people often want different roles for things, and that won't change. It's like the "4 Healers Argument" - "But what if the healer I like the aesthetics of doesn't have the more damage buttons and is the one left alone?!?"

The difference here being that Time Mage IS a traditional Final Fantasy Job (AST is not).

People also want axe wielding berserker DPSers and so on. Honestly, it's just DPS people wanting everything, truth be told. But I guess if you're the role spoiled for choice (and spoiled in general), it's easy to constantly want more?

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As for GEO as a DPS, it's the other half of the element wheel from BLM. Healers aren't DPS. Not to mention we don't have "GEO the healer" anyway in the aesthetic sense.

As for the quotes, I'm not going to repeat the lv60-70 questline to find them because...

Which is why I asked for the exact quotes. People often take things out of context or misremember/misread things, and not by intent. Human memory is like that at the best of times. And once a position forms, it's very difficult to break, like when I did the deep dive through the entire CNJ questline to point out to people that they were completely wrong about their view on the Sylphie story - a position many can't drop even now when faced with the evidence countering their position.

Often, quotes don't make the absolute statements that people remember them having made, or inferred from them, which is why the exact quotes are so important in actual lore discussions.

Frankly GEO would be an off shoot of AST (not CNJ) but since SE doesn't want to make dual classes like SCH/SMN your reasoning of linking it to CNJ is fine.

No, it wouldn't. Either would work, but CNJ makes the most sense if GEO is a Job (rather than a class), and AST isn't a class anyway, so it can't have an offshoot, as such. But regardless, SE doesn't want to do anything with classes anymore.

Once again, I agree lore isn't a good reason (lore didn't save AST after all) but what would GEO be bringing different that WHM cannot other than be a full DPS class?

I mean, literally that: A different Job in a different Role with a different combat style.

I'd rather have something else or a Druid like class where one can shapeshift or a whole nother class who doesn't have a similar feel to it.

Good for you?

Not every Job addition is based on what we individuals want. I think we all can agree on that point. Like I don't care about edgy Jobs at all, yet RPR and DRK (and kinda BLM and to a far lesser extent AST) exist. It's just the nature of the beast.

Edit: I should add that adding in things like GEO and TIM further limit what they can do with WHM and AST

Not really. Their self-imposed limits on Healers is what limits what they're going to do with the Jobs. BLM and RDM both exist, and SCH/SMN existed for years stepping all over each others' toes. SCH and SGE are all in each others' business, too.

Edit2: Also yes please add Vermedica to RDM and maybe one other heal. I will play that over any of the current healers, because at the very least, MP management is back and I have no excess healing that's not being used instead of giving me buffs, debuffs, simple class thematic extra dps buttons (1-2-3 unbroken by heals rotation or not) or a combination of all three.

I mean, this is BLU healing in a nutshell. WHM without any oGCD heals and without Lilies, and with elemental themed attacks.

damn, thought I had posted my post but it was left just before posting

Oh man, I hate it when that happens. I feel ya.

(if the narrative followed gameplay mechanics, I'd have overwritten his barrier cos Nocturnal Field/Galvanize don't stack lmao)

GENERALLY speaking, it plays pretty fast and loose with them. Not only that, you would have overwritten his barrier (at the time) if GEO was AST, since two nAST barriers didn't stack. We also have cases like Benison stacking with Galvanize. Does that mean WHM and SCH use the same magic, or different magics? I don't think you can really draw good conclusions from that.

As for being a DPS: Magicked Barrier. Arcane Crest. Troubatician Samba.

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I think the disconnect is the people that want to see red pointy hats and the "clock spells" from FF8 and similar games. AST doesn't really...do that. Part of the reason is simple: FFXIV's combat system doesn't work that way. A DPS TIM Job, I suspect, would work more like Gaia's fight and be more about juggling timers on DoTs and stuff. Like the ability to accelerate DoTs to do burst damage, extend durations of DoTs and likely some self-upkeep-buff, and maybe some token party utility like a party-wide Regen like Everlasting Flight. They could get some kind of "reverse time to before you died" Raise, but even that's questionable.

Haste just doesn't work in modern FFXIV. It's not like WoW where Timewarp/Bloodlust/Heroism is actually a useful stat for most/all Jobs. In FFXIV, haste throws OFF timers and causes buffs and burst to drift in unpredictable ways, which is why most Jobs don't really want it. And even for the few it might help - BLM and RDM come to mind since their rotations aren't STRICTLY on a timer - it's largely devalued, in RDM's case because every other spell is Dualcast in in BLM's case because of all their free movement tools (and haste + Ley Lines could get a bit ridiculous).

The combat system just doesn't support TIM, and won't unless they add a Support role and dump the 2 min meta/"every Job has a burst phase" mentality. The latter is more likely than the former, but neither is great.

So understand, I'm not advocating adding TIM as a DPS - to work best, it would be DoT based (which I hate; although I dislike DoTs far less when there's actual gameplay focused around their use, procs, and management rather than "refresh on duration") most likely, it would have token party buffs/utility, and I personally wouldn't likely enjoy playing it at all since FFXIV doesn't have a Support role, so it would lose much of its support-based gameplay.

But, I AM saying that AST is not a Time Mage, and never was. It was an FFT Astrologer/Orran's Job with a kitchen sink of mechanics. It's like SGE in FFXIV isn't a Sage in the normal FF sense. Except worse since Astrologian didn't exist as a Job before FFXIV exactly. "Astrologer" is technically a different thing in lore and concept as well as gameplay, whereas SGE least has the general idea of Sage as a wisened and learned scholar and community elder, more or less.

For a while, it was a popular theory that GEO would’ve been the first casting tank, casing barriers on themselves to reduce damage and having a way to nullify interruption.

I don’t think, given the lore we already have, that GEO “must” be a healer per say, because you can be creative with our existing lore or introduce a subset of Geomancers from Meracydia or something, but I also don’t feel it seems connected to the DPS role either.

I always felt this was more a "what some people thought could be/wanted to be" than a "what most people thought it was going to be" kind of a thing. GEO in FFs past was generally a damage dealer or, in more rare cases, off-healer.

...but then DRK. So yeah.

[ForsakenRoe]

Yeh, but the point we're trying to get at is 'AST used to have these time manipulation aspects, and Time Mage referential skills/effects. It no longer has them. Therefore, it will feel like quite the kick in the sensitive parts if we get given Time Mage, after having all of the Time Mage esque flavor taken from a different class'. Same line for GEO and WHM, cos WHM had elements, lost them in favor of Christmas Lights, and then potentially GEO comes along to use what was taken. I and others do not subscribe to the 'GEO completes the elemental wheel, acting as the opposite number to BLM', because it's already been in the lore for several years: WHM was that opposite number. There's a whole calamity caused by the two of them having a fight.

Demonology Lock used to be able to turn into a demon form and offtank in Mists. They lost that ability, and then a couple years later, Demon Hunters were released. Some people like DH, some not so much. But there are warlock fans who are still rather miffed that they had to lose a cool thing they could do, in order to be given it back on a different class (meaning, level a new class on a new character, get different gear, etc). This would be very similar, I think. Especially when the healer designs have so much overlap now. Trying to justify 'yeh we took away all the timebending from AST and made it feel like 'WHM with cards' (not quite how I see it, but some apparently do), but don't worry guys, we've got a solution for your time-manipulation craving: Time Mage, the new* class for 7.0!' doesn't sound like it'd go down super well with the AST crowd. Nor would GEO with the WHMs who miss having elemental skills

*'new' in this context is like those cheap 'pork sausages': they're actually only 50-70% pork meat, and the rest is padded out with flour and such

[Renathras]

The reason DPS is enjoyable isn't because it has more buttons or a rotation; it's enjoyable because there's a problem you need to solve — get the enemies dead — and the buttons you have give the player an enjoyable way to accomplish that task. The problem DPS players set out to solve lasts for the entire duration of the fight, so they always have something to do, and are thus always engaged.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out (and the purpose of this and the BLU thread) is:

1) What is FUN about them.
2) What can then be incorporated in the Healers.

I don't find them FUN, so I'm trying to figure out what other people see in them. People say "fun" or "engaging", but I don't find them either. So I'm wondering WHAT is fun or engaging about them, though I think part of this is just in one's mindset and focus.

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Agreed with your last point.

It's a problem combining both encounter design and that Healers have far too many buttons, at least in terms of oGCDs and the power of their heals relative to damage. Though there are some other things that contribute, such as natural gear progression reducing healing needs, natural improvement of player skill in fights reducing damage taken, and so on; I think those first two are more the core. BLU healing now feels a lot like WHM healing used to. And part of that is because it has no oGCD heals, and few heals in general, making them more impactful. Pom Cure is your Cure1/2, and that's it. No Tetra, no Solace, no Lustrate, no Excogitation, no Essential Dignity, no Durochole, no Taurochole, no Hamia, just Pom Cure. For AOE, you have three options, a cheap one that has a short-ish range and AOE Esuna, a long range one that's a little more MP expensive to justify the range but does the same healing, an AOE barrier that has no healing attached, a single target damage reduction that's spamable (Cactguard), and an AOE + HoT Medica 2 on a long CD, which it shares with Matra Magic, if you carry that.

That is, imagine if WHM's entire kit was Glare/Holy (I like to use Electrogenesis which is AOE naturally, unlike things like Abyssal Transfixtion, which is single target), Dia, Assize but it's 30 sec CD and GCD and ground targeted, Misery (on a 60 sec CD), a second Misery/Holy (on a 90 or 120 sec CD, depending on if we're going Glass Dance or Being Mortal), Cure 2, Medica, Medica 2 on a 120 sec CD, Cure 3 range Medica potency and an AOE Esuna, a Medica range heal based on your HP reversed from Essential Dignity, Succor but only the shield part, Aquaveil but it has a cast time and no CD like ARR/HW Stoneskin, old SCH Energy Drain (restores HP and MP of the Caster) except as a GCD, Aero 3 on a 2 min CD (Nightbloom), Raise, and that's kind of...it. You can carry some extra utility stuff like Ram/Ultra (for 4 mans) or throw up Mighty Guard/Diamondback if you ned to use a self-defensive, but those would have far less currency with WHM in an organized non-limited Job group (where you have actual Tanks).

Other Bleeds don't really work well since BLU can only have one on a target at a time (e.g. Nightbloom will overwrite Song of Torment), and the Healer BLU is not the one that should generally be using the "only one on a target period" spells like the blue flame one from Grand Cosmos since it would overwrite a DPSer's.

While that seems like a lot, in practice, it's one single target heal, an AOE heal based on range (Stotram) or Esuna need (Exuviation, which there's not a LOT of if people aren't messing up mechanics) or own health (White Wind, though White Wind is rarely useful to a HEALER spec BLU since usually when you need that much healing your own HP is low so that Stotram/Exuviation will heal for more, and when it's not, you don't often need to heal the entire party [e.g. tankbusters] so that Pom Cure is the better choice; WW is more for DPS/Tank BLUs since it doesn't depend on healing potency in any way), Gobskin as a party mitigation, and Cactguard for tankbusters. Your DPS rotation is generally Presence of Mind (Off-Guard), 2 min CD DoT (60 sec duration, then when it expires 30 sec DoT, 30 sec DoT, repeat, kinda makes me think of old SMN with the Tri-Disaster rotation in a way...), Misery (and again at 1 min), Misery 2, Assize, then Glarespam, Asssize at 30 sec, Assize and DoT at 1 min, Assiaze and DoT at 90 sec, then repeat the opener at the 2 min mark.

Yes, BLU follows the dreaded 2 min meta.

Due to no oGCDs, healing is a weird mix of pro-active-re-active. For example, if several big hits are coming, you might try to start casting Stotram before the damage hits so the healing effectively hits right after it and before the next wave. You have to actually stand and cast Pom Cure if you need to spot heal players that got clipped by something or took a random targeted hit from the boss - since all BLUs are DPS to the game code, "targets tank" or "targets healers" mechanics will randomly pick whoever they feel like. And some BLU players seem to forget they can toggle Mighty Guard for a personal defensive. You have only two tools that can be done pro-actively, Cactguard and Gobskin, but the rest have cast bars, meaning you can partially pre-cast them, which is much more like old-school MMOs would do with "cast-canceling" where you'd start casting a big heal, then move to cancel it before it finished if the tank didn't need the healing. Doing this was necessary in some old school MMOs due to how slow the big casts were but how much more mana efficient they were than the fast cast emergency cures. So you'd basically constantly start the stop casting them to "stock/prep" them, but only let the cast finish if you needed it.

While BLU doesn't work that way, it DOES work with the "start cast before damage, cast completes after damage" way, another staple of those times.

The more I mess with it, the more BLU healing feels to me like WHM healing used to. Simple damage kit, hardcast heals, reactive but anticipatory healing style.

Oh, I forget Ravana's attack. That's actually a fun one since it doesn't work like much else. Feels like Garuda attacks on SMN - 4 quick burst GCDs used together.

But then you get into the weirdness of why some of those deserve to be buttons. "A DoT, but you only press it once per 2 mins" doesn't sound super appealing. "A damage spell, but you only press it once per 2 minutes". These are a lot like Goring Blade/Sonic Break, attacks people often complain about as being bland and pointless to even have in the rotation.

EDIT:

Yeh, but the point we're trying to get at is 'AST used to have these time manipulation aspects, and Time Mage referential skills/effects. It no longer has them. Therefore, it will feel like quite the kick in the sensitive parts if we get given Time Mage, after having all of the Time Mage esque flavor taken from a different class'.

Maybe.

But my point is more that AST should never have had them in the first place. AST stole them from Time Mage. Time Mage getting them back wouldn't be AST getting the kick, it would be TIM reclaiming what was always rightfully its.

In fact, same for WHM. WHM should never have been a Druid Elementalist Geomancer in the first place. It should have been Glare/Dia/Holy from the jump. Again, GEO wouldn't be stealing anything, it would be taking what rightfully belonged to it. (It's also not exactly correct on WHM and BLM being opposite in terms of ELEMENTAL properties - Wind is generally Astral and Ice Umbral, and the split between WHM and BLM was supposed to be Umbral/Astral, so that's never been true since the moment BLM got "Umbral Ice and Astral Fire"...)

Besides which, again, RDM: Exists.

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Tank Warlock was...never intended. I say this as a person that thought it was awesome, btw. But it was never intended nor supported by Blizzard. That's too much fun, and they have to nerf fun. I think it had it for, what, 2-3 patches due to some Glyphs working shockingly well? It could even main-tank 5 man dungeon runs for a bit, and people loved it. So, of course, it had to be removed.

And as far as it goes:

It's entirely possible to have Time Mage exist AND Astrologian have those muted time dilation effects AT THE SAME TIME. PLD exists and casts Holy magic. WHM exists and casts Holy Magic. BLM exists and casts Fire and Lightning. RDM exists and casts Fire and Lightning. Both even have a VAGUELY similar "pendulum" effect between Astral (Fire/Black Mana) and Umbral (Ice/White Mana) spells. And both of those are the same Role.

I don't think the argument "if this goes to X, Y can't have anything like it" is valid. Hell, all four Healers share a core kit and like 9 spells - Esuna, Cure 1 (equivalent), Medica (equivalent in some form; SCH is the odd one out but has Emergency Tactics Succor on a super short CD for ET), Raise, Spamnuke, Basic DoT, oGCD Cure 2 equivalent (Tetra/Solace sorta, Lustrate, ED, Duro), and AOE on a CD (Assize, Indom, Celestial, Ixochole)

Somehow, this isn't a problem.

[ForsakenRoe]

In fact, same for WHM. WHM should never have been a Druid Elementalist Geomancer in the first place. It should have been Glare/Dia/Holy from the jump. Again, GEO wouldn't be stealing anything, it would be taking what rightfully belonged to it. (It's also not exactly correct on WHM and BLM being opposite in terms of ELEMENTAL properties - Wind is generally Astral and Ice Umbral, and the split between WHM and BLM was supposed to be Umbral/Astral, so that's never been true since the moment BLM got "Umbral Ice and Astral Fire"...)

Besides which, again, RDM: Exists..

long

The fact that RDM exists, surely proves my point, though? If RDM came about as a result of the survivors of the flood of the calamity, ex-BLM and WHMs coming together and going 'damn we messed up bad', it stands to reason that the RDM, born of those two disciplines coming together, would use a combination of those two disciplines' techniques. It has Black Magics that build Black Mana with VerFire and VerThunder, and it has White Magics that build White Mana with VerStone and VerAero. Throwing the elements onto GEO and removing them from WHM, would throw things for a loop and imply that RDM is more attuned to GEO techniques than WHM, which is odd. If they wanted to fully divorce WHM from elements, they'd have to rewrite the lore of WHM, RDM, the 6th calamity (the flood, maybe it was the 5th I dont remember), etc.

Whether WHM should have been Holy Priest 2 from the getgo is not my concern, the point is that you only get one chance to make a first impression, and that counts for design too. People want their DOTs back for SMN, despite the rework, because SMN started out as having DOTs. Some people want Dark Arts and MP management back on DRK because that's how it started out.

You say 'BLM and RDM both use fire/lightning for their casting', WHM and RDM both use earth/wind for their casting. SE messed up when they made Glare. If they wanted to move towards Holy aesthetics, then they should have merged the two, elemental and 'pure light' and had like, rocks with light bursting from the cracks. Or changing the rocks to be more like the bleached white marble that Mt Gulg is made of. Instead of completely removing the rocks and changing the effect to the swishy light balls

And come on, don't do the false equivalence thing with 'X has a thing, so noone else can have it' with healing skills. Or I'll have to say 'DRG has a skill (Lance Charge) that increases their damage dealt for a duration, therefore no other DPS is allowed to have a skill that increases their damage dealt for a duration', the assertion would be ridiculous, because it'd mean deleting Raging Strikes, Trick Attack, and Riddle of Fire. You'll also remember, I've posted several times about how I'd make those healers less similar, what SE does to homogenize classes has nothing to do with me

You do have one point though: PLD and WHM both using holy magic. WHM already attacks with earth and wind, making a 'new class' as a DPS that attacks with earth and wind doesn't seem like it'd stand out at a fanfest. If I saw a class throwing rocks my mind would say 'WHM' before 'GEO' at this point. So, flip the script, and have it use the elements defensively. I'm not necessarily against GEO as a class completely, I am just against the idea of 'take aspect away from current class, make new class from it'. Like, if they were to remove the MCH's gun, and make it 100% about the tools, and then give the gun to a Musketeer class, there'd be some people who would say 'this is BS I levelled MCH for the gun wtf SE' and they'd be justified in that, even if using the tools fits more with a MCH identity or whatever. But it's a very weird situation, because WHM both has AND hasn't lost it's elemental kit. It's still using Stone IV any time you sync into SB content. It's not like the holy lightshow has completely replaced the kit at all levels, in the way SMN gets it's, 'essentially max level' rotation at level 26 or whenever you get the 3rd carbuncle.

If they really want to 'remove aspect from class, make new class from it' they have to do a damn good job of convincing me, and probably other people who hold similar thinking to me, that the removal is justified. 'We removed attacking with elements from WHM to make GEO where you attack with elements' is not enough to me. We can see like, 'we removed Noct Sect and made parts of it into an actual class called Sage', ok? Or you could have put effort into balancing Noct Sect better and not removing a whole aspect of a class from the game? 'We removed the time manipulation from AST, to make a tank where you manipulate time to reduce damage taken' has at least a little bit of potential, cos they can get creative with defensives and invuln potentially. They won't, of course, but the potential is there

I noticed this with Necromancer too. Lot of people were onboard for the idea of Necro as a job, but the moment anyone said 'what if they get wild with the design, and make it a healer', they are instantly like 'noooo Necromancer has to be a caster dps!' and I feel like it might be the same here. Saying 'OK GEO is added next, but it's a tank', and people are less enthused about it. Because they don't want GEO, they want 'Caster DPS GEO' specifically. We saw it with DNC too, nothing implied that it 'should' have been a healer, but people got angry that it wasn't one anyway. Or people who were angry that SAM was not a tank. I suppose it's w/e either way, because caster or tank or physranged it doesn't matter what GEO is, if it's ever added to the game, I probably won't be using it outside of EX roulette regardless

Besides all of that rant though, one important aspect remains unanswered: GEO's identity is that of a class who's main skill, 'Geomancy', changes in effect based on the terrain. In most games, that's the arena, in FFTA it was the tile they stood on. To mimic this effect in FFXIV, you'd have to either do it based on the weather (something we see is possible cos of BLU), but that means you're screwed in raids because they have their own individual weathers (like the band-name sounding Dragonstorm or Demonic Infinity). Alternatively, you could give the class the ability to designate certain zones with CDs. So now you have 'Ley Lines: the job', and we all know how the average player feels about Ley Lines, given the meme status surrounding it.

And no, the devs cannot compromise on the 'stand in terrain, change skill's effect', that is the GEO identity. To do so would mean admitting that they could have done something re: BLU's identity too, and that's a can of worms they would not want to open, methinks

edit: on the BLU part of your post, you're right. BLU follows the 2min meta, and has done since before the 2min meta actually got enforced in EW. BLU's healing style is very interesting to me, as it actually shows, quite effectively, how little of our healing kit we actually need. If a team of BLU can get through a raid tuned for real players, with the healer-BLUs having Pom Cure, Gobskin, Strotram and Angel Snack for healing, why do the actual healers need to have like 8 different CDs to do that same job?