TOP cleared with no healers

[Renathras]

The real healer is Warrior and Paladin

The real Healers are the Tanks we met along the way?

That kinda suggests the problems are Tanks having too much healing...

Doesn't excuse the fact that the hardest content in the game should not be clearable without healers. It shows an entire role is completely disposable in all facets of the game.

Except it doesn't, because almost no one can do this, and even this was only possible with a VERY specific comp and VERY specific strategy.

Exactly.

Give DDs decent self heal, give healers a proper dps rotation and rebrand them as support dps jobs. Easiest way to solve the healer issue.

If healers cannot outdamage Damage Dealers, contents clearable without healers are still clearable without healers.

Giving healers engaging damage tools doesn't solve the issue entirely

Exactly.

If people are already clearing without Healers, how would Healers having more dps buttons/rotation and doing LESS healing while everyone else does more fix the problem, exactly?

Not to mention all that'll do is piss off people that actually want to play Healers. A lot of prior Healers already don't like PvP Healing now since it actually IS a case of "Healers are not needed at all" and all their actual HEALS are gated behind CDs.

Its not broken. Because somebody can do it doesnt mean, its a rule. They have very specific comp with well planed mitigation and healing sheet (Like... how many times have you seen DNC using his heal to help the party lol).

Agreed.

UCoB can be done with over 100 deaths if very well planed.

That's...that's...wut? o.O rofl, how's THAT even possible? XD

Agreed with you overall - what healing needs isn't more DPS/damage rotation, what it needs to to actually have things to heal. Spot healing, debuff cleanses, heal checks, etc. And agreed this example proves literally none of the thing people are trying to use it to prove.

EDIT:

You don't partake in high end content, which is what this discussion centers around. I recall you not even having a character at 90 for months into Endwalker's life cycle. Which is fine... until you want to comment on the healing requirements (or lack thereof) in Savage and Ultimate. You don't know what you're talking about because you literally don't do the content. That is an entirely fair rebuttal in this context.

This is wrong, you know why?

1) This is being used to suggest ALL CONTENT needs to change/is in a state, not just "Savage and Ultimate". So Gemina and anyone else doing those other forms of comment have a say as well.

2) Many people who DO "literally do the content" don't agree with your position.

3) It's also an ad hominem/attack on the messenger fallacy. What is wrong with HER ARGUMENT? Anyone can say "you don't know what you're talking about", she could say that about you. That's why it's a logical fallacy. You either can say why someone's argument is wrong or you cannot.

So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?

And, specifically, in what ways would change be implemented that doesn't affect normal content or Extremes (since those aren't "Savage or Ultimate")?

For a specific example, take Barbarriccia.

My big issue with BarbiEx was that you're required to move too much. So what does this do? It means almost all healing is done with oGCDs. This just means more Broilspam. The damage output being that high is fine, but the movement needs to be less to compensate.

Then we went and hit Ex5 with the stupid stick and did a 180 where the damage is low for most of the fight AND the movement is a lot less. But then the damage comes all at once at the end...in the middle of tons of movement. It's like the Devs are intentionally designing fights to not only require oGCD healing but disallow GCD healing due to not being able to stand still to cast it when it's most needed. They need to flip that.

what's the common variable? IQ?

No.

Yes because they dont do ultimate. But casuals can instead do dungeons without healers. WAR + 3 DPS can do any dungeon and doesnt require and ElItE SkIlLz. Healers are obsolete in 90% of the content and the 10% is as a safety net when things go south, if they dont, then healers are not needed period

And yet almost no "casuals" do this. The people doing this tend to be high end players with their Static buddies wanting to farm faster clears. Casuals are just using DF.

[MatchaokaCha]

This doesn’t apply to 99.99% of the player base.

This concept isn't actually new. I literally tanked expert and 90 dungeons without healers on my paladin and warrior.

[Sebazy]

This doesn’t apply to 99.99% of the player base.

But it does. Either you're not paying attention enough to notice it or you're willingly ignore it. This sort of thing happens at all levels of the end game.

There's the video I linked above. That was from an old thread here, it was a pug, the healers died early and an entirely bang average group continued on to kill a current and relevant Extreme with no issues.

How many times have you seen the healer die in a dungeon like Dead Ends and again, the tank just carries the rest of the fight, maybe even solos it. I can probably dig up logs if you really must.

This is a problem at all levels of play in the end game and IMHO as someone who literally still has 'pocket healbot' as their lodestone bio, it's just depressing at this stage.

In Everquest, if I was alive, you were alive too. I was known as a powerhouse of healing and survivability and unless it was a death touch, you weren't dieing before me. I felt mighty, I felt impactful.

In WoW PvP, if I was alive, you were alive too. I was known as a powerhouse of healing and survivability and in open world and BGs, if I was covering you, you weren't dieing before me. I felt mighty, I felt impactful.

In FFXIV, I'm topping you up between raidwides and doing ~half your damage. That's about the extent of my responsibilities as a healer now. There's only so much I can save you from and that rapidly dwindles to little to nothing once you hit Savage. Dropping huge HPS bombs is neither productive, nor even remotely optimal and for the bulk of the time. I feel like a DPS but instead of engaging gameplay mechanics, I get a cooldown spreadsheet with my co-healer.

[Shinkuno]

And yet almost no "casuals" do this. The people doing this tend to be high end players with their Static buddies wanting to farm faster clears. Casuals are just using DF.

And they would do healer-less clears if the df allowed it. Recently had a prae run where we got all the way up the last boss with PLD, SMN and whatever third dps was cause the healer straight up quit at the start. The non-avoidable damage in this game is laughable and in older content not even the avoidable damage is threatening and you may aswell stand in everything to make the runs go faster.

[fulminating]

It's not exactly hard content, but on release there were at least a few tank only runs of dark within because the queues were taking ages. Thinking back, I'm pretty sure the healer died to every boss in tower of babil and it wasn't an issue to a blind party (before it was so widely obvious just how silly tank's party sustain was).

[Sebazy]

So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?

I missed this one sorry, it's an interesting question and I'll merrily expand on it.

Personally, if Uncle Yoshi came down and hired me overnight, I'd make a few changes. Some being quick fixes, some being more long term changes in design direction.

Literally the first thing I'd do before I took my jacket off would be to allow bosses to continue to auto attack through some means whilst casting. The main goal of this is to prevent situations like RubiEX where the fight literally goes well over a minute at a time between attacks. This also almost instantly course corrects the current lack of tank damage and brings value to once key abilities like Regen again.

Secondly, I'd have try to ensure that physically larger or multi sectioned bosses would be able to have multiple auto attacks with various different ways of deciding how those attacks are directed. Remember how large FFXI monsters were able to not only bite and claw, but could kick and spike flail (Tail cleave) as well? Think that, but all at the same time. Remember Rampage targets in Everquest? The goal is something similar to that but ideally more erratic and obviously scaled appropriately for the content. The idea isn't to one shot people randomly, but rather the idea is to actually force healers to need to pay attention to the groups HP bars again even when content is on farm.

Third, I'd scale overall HP and single target heals upwards moderately, but keep AoE heals where they are or maybe even nerf them lightly. Right now you can comfortably heal most pre Savage end game content by doing little more than maintaining Medica II. You won't run out of MP and the healing is depressingly sufficient. That's not a situation I'm happy with. Mixing up the full party raidwides with the occasional need for actual somewhat unpredictable single target triage healing due to the usual Assize/Asylum/Soil/Star/WD spam not being able to cover it would do wonders to break up the current monotony IMO.

Fourth and probably not last, I'd look to drastically expand both the job and content design team's views on healing engagement. Healers need to stop being treated like green DPS in raid content when their kits just don't support that play style.

And yet almost no "casuals" do this. The people doing this tend to be high end players with their Static buddies wanting to farm faster clears. Casuals are just using DF.

https://youtu.be/T6MvwQWBMVg?t=471

Here's some pug casuals continuing on merrily on then peak endgame content after both healers went pop. The casuals might not be queuing up in this way but it doesn't mean they aren't finishing it long after the healers checked out.

[AmiableApkallu]

There's a simple reason why MSQ content and similar being clearable without a healer is a problem:

When you are that (sprout) healer, and you die, and everyone carries on without you well and fine… it just feels bad being shown exactly how unneeded your skills and presence are.

Or I don't know, maybe that's just me.

[ForteNightshade]

This is wrong, you know why?

1) This is being used to suggest ALL CONTENT needs to change/is in a state, not just "Savage and Ultimate". So Gemina and anyone else doing those other forms of comment have a say as well.

2) Many people who DO "literally do the content" don't agree with your position.

3) It's also an ad hominem/attack on the messenger fallacy. What is wrong with HER ARGUMENT? Anyone can say "you don't know what you're talking about", she could say that about you. That's why it's a logical fallacy. You either can say why someone's argument is wrong or you cannot.

1) This thread and the discussion of TOP pertains to high end content. Furthermore, pretty much everyone has acknowledged changes to the healer design, be they a more flushed out DPS kit, actual healing requirements or some combination of the two wouldn't impact casual players because they wouldn't have to use them in the content they partake in. We needs only look to Heavensward and even Stormblood to see that.

2) Just like in the other thread, you're once again arguing semantics and simply using a different modifier that makes your argument sound better without actually presenting a rebuttal. You have no idea "MANY" who do the content feel anything is wrong with healers. Meanwhile, I do have ample evidence "some" do considering it's been the biggest talking point alongside the two minute meta this entire expansion. Any other word is just semantics.

3) I suggest you look up that fallacy. Gemina directly mentioned that being a source of criticism she's received. Therefore, it was apart of her argument hence my response. Now, you're correct. She could say that about me. I, however, have prove of actually healing high end content. So it wouldn't exactly get her very far. So if that's why "it's a logical fallacy". Congratulations on proving why it doesn't apply in this context.

But even taken at face value, her lack of participation in Savage/Ultimate is still relevant to the discussion because she's dismissing any sort of criticism towards the healing design and insisting this is merely an "exception to the rule." As Sebazy as pointed out, we have several examples that it isn't. Sure, Zodiark is a far cry from TOP but the point of contention people have isn't just the content itself but that it's even possible to clear any endgame content, especially high end difficulties, without a healer.

Put simply, it isn't the clear itself that's the problem but a launching pad for discussing the flaws in both content and healer design that allows for it to even happen in the first place. This can and has included overall healing such as the abundance given to tanks as another contributing factor.

[Renathras]

...

1) No, because it's used to draw conclusions about Healer Jobs IN ALL CONTENT, as well AS ALL CONTENT.

2) No, you're trying to negate arguments without actually making counter arguments.

3) You failed to actually offer a rebuttal. All it proved is she has a say. You can't just ignore or write off the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you while talking about issues that matter to them.

4) It literally is an exception to the rule. A person doesn't have to have a physics degree to say "rain is falling right now" when it's raining. And you saying "Pah! You don't have a degree in physics or meteorology! You aren't in a position to tell me whether or not it's raining!"

4b) Ex5 has been cleared with 1 Healer + 7 DPS. Is that proof Tanks aren't needed in the game or that there's a serious problem with content not needing Tanks?

5) If the clear is used to talk about the rest of the game, everyone gets a say. Moreover, the flaws are in the content design, TANK design and DPS design.

[WaxSw]

4) It literally is an exception to the rule. A person doesn't have to have a physics degree to say "rain is falling right now" when it's raining. And you saying "Pah! You don't have a degree in physics or meteorology! You aren't in a position to tell me whether or not it's raining!"

4b) Ex5 has been cleared with 1 Healer + 7 DPS. Is that proof Tanks aren't needed in the game or that there's a serious problem with content not needing Tanks?

5) If the clear is used to talk about the rest of the game, everyone gets a say. Moreover, the flaws are in the content design, TANK design and DPS design.

just a 4, 4b and 5 answer

4) Its not a exception to the rule, every content released in the game has seen solo healer and no healer clears, regardless of its difficulty. If it were only TOP or only an Ex it would speak about those fights, when it happens ON EVERY SINGLE ULTIMATE and content below then it suddenly stops being an exception and becomes the rule

4b) Tanks don't get removed out of dungeon speedruns because what they bring to the party is not useful, tanks don't see no-tank/solo tank clears for ultimates on patch nor they see no-tank/ solo tank for every piece of content in the game. Once again, this is not a problem just of TOP, TOP is just a very clear example of a long running problem in healer design.

5) lol that "everyone but me" mentality. Sure despite healers having the problems, the cause of those is everything else in the game, not that the healers have been dumbed to the point they no longer fit the game