TOP cleared with no healers

[Renathras]

The real healer is Warrior and Paladin

The real Healers are the Tanks we met along the way?

That kinda suggests the problems are Tanks having too much healing...

Doesn't excuse the fact that the hardest content in the game should not be clearable without healers. It shows an entire role is completely disposable in all facets of the game.

Except it doesn't, because almost no one can do this, and even this was only possible with a VERY specific comp and VERY specific strategy.

Exactly.

Give DDs decent self heal, give healers a proper dps rotation and rebrand them as support dps jobs. Easiest way to solve the healer issue.

If healers cannot outdamage Damage Dealers, contents clearable without healers are still clearable without healers.

Giving healers engaging damage tools doesn't solve the issue entirely

Exactly.

If people are already clearing without Healers, how would Healers having more dps buttons/rotation and doing LESS healing while everyone else does more fix the problem, exactly?

Not to mention all that'll do is piss off people that actually want to play Healers. A lot of prior Healers already don't like PvP Healing now since it actually IS a case of "Healers are not needed at all" and all their actual HEALS are gated behind CDs.

Its not broken. Because somebody can do it doesnt mean, its a rule. They have very specific comp with well planed mitigation and healing sheet (Like... how many times have you seen DNC using his heal to help the party lol).

Agreed.

UCoB can be done with over 100 deaths if very well planed.

That's...that's...wut? o.O rofl, how's THAT even possible? XD

Agreed with you overall - what healing needs isn't more DPS/damage rotation, what it needs to to actually have things to heal. Spot healing, debuff cleanses, heal checks, etc. And agreed this example proves literally none of the thing people are trying to use it to prove.

EDIT:

You don't partake in high end content, which is what this discussion centers around. I recall you not even having a character at 90 for months into Endwalker's life cycle. Which is fine... until you want to comment on the healing requirements (or lack thereof) in Savage and Ultimate. You don't know what you're talking about because you literally don't do the content. That is an entirely fair rebuttal in this context.

This is wrong, you know why?

1) This is being used to suggest ALL CONTENT needs to change/is in a state, not just "Savage and Ultimate". So Gemina and anyone else doing those other forms of comment have a say as well.

2) Many people who DO "literally do the content" don't agree with your position.

3) It's also an ad hominem/attack on the messenger fallacy. What is wrong with HER ARGUMENT? Anyone can say "you don't know what you're talking about", she could say that about you. That's why it's a logical fallacy. You either can say why someone's argument is wrong or you cannot.

So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?

And, specifically, in what ways would change be implemented that doesn't affect normal content or Extremes (since those aren't "Savage or Ultimate")?

For a specific example, take Barbarriccia.

My big issue with BarbiEx was that you're required to move too much. So what does this do? It means almost all healing is done with oGCDs. This just means more Broilspam. The damage output being that high is fine, but the movement needs to be less to compensate.

Then we went and hit Ex5 with the stupid stick and did a 180 where the damage is low for most of the fight AND the movement is a lot less. But then the damage comes all at once at the end...in the middle of tons of movement. It's like the Devs are intentionally designing fights to not only require oGCD healing but disallow GCD healing due to not being able to stand still to cast it when it's most needed. They need to flip that.

what's the common variable? IQ?

No.

Yes because they dont do ultimate. But casuals can instead do dungeons without healers. WAR + 3 DPS can do any dungeon and doesnt require and ElItE SkIlLz. Healers are obsolete in 90% of the content and the 10% is as a safety net when things go south, if they dont, then healers are not needed period

And yet almost no "casuals" do this. The people doing this tend to be high end players with their Static buddies wanting to farm faster clears. Casuals are just using DF.

[Shinkuno]

And yet almost no "casuals" do this. The people doing this tend to be high end players with their Static buddies wanting to farm faster clears. Casuals are just using DF.

And they would do healer-less clears if the df allowed it. Recently had a prae run where we got all the way up the last boss with PLD, SMN and whatever third dps was cause the healer straight up quit at the start. The non-avoidable damage in this game is laughable and in older content not even the avoidable damage is threatening and you may aswell stand in everything to make the runs go faster.

[ForteNightshade]

This is wrong, you know why?

1) This is being used to suggest ALL CONTENT needs to change/is in a state, not just "Savage and Ultimate". So Gemina and anyone else doing those other forms of comment have a say as well.

2) Many people who DO "literally do the content" don't agree with your position.

3) It's also an ad hominem/attack on the messenger fallacy. What is wrong with HER ARGUMENT? Anyone can say "you don't know what you're talking about", she could say that about you. That's why it's a logical fallacy. You either can say why someone's argument is wrong or you cannot.

1) This thread and the discussion of TOP pertains to high end content. Furthermore, pretty much everyone has acknowledged changes to the healer design, be they a more flushed out DPS kit, actual healing requirements or some combination of the two wouldn't impact casual players because they wouldn't have to use them in the content they partake in. We needs only look to Heavensward and even Stormblood to see that.

2) Just like in the other thread, you're once again arguing semantics and simply using a different modifier that makes your argument sound better without actually presenting a rebuttal. You have no idea "MANY" who do the content feel anything is wrong with healers. Meanwhile, I do have ample evidence "some" do considering it's been the biggest talking point alongside the two minute meta this entire expansion. Any other word is just semantics.

3) I suggest you look up that fallacy. Gemina directly mentioned that being a source of criticism she's received. Therefore, it was apart of her argument hence my response. Now, you're correct. She could say that about me. I, however, have prove of actually healing high end content. So it wouldn't exactly get her very far. So if that's why "it's a logical fallacy". Congratulations on proving why it doesn't apply in this context.

But even taken at face value, her lack of participation in Savage/Ultimate is still relevant to the discussion because she's dismissing any sort of criticism towards the healing design and insisting this is merely an "exception to the rule." As Sebazy as pointed out, we have several examples that it isn't. Sure, Zodiark is a far cry from TOP but the point of contention people have isn't just the content itself but that it's even possible to clear any endgame content, especially high end difficulties, without a healer.

Put simply, it isn't the clear itself that's the problem but a launching pad for discussing the flaws in both content and healer design that allows for it to even happen in the first place. This can and has included overall healing such as the abundance given to tanks as another contributing factor.

[Renathras]

...

1) No, because it's used to draw conclusions about Healer Jobs IN ALL CONTENT, as well AS ALL CONTENT.

2) No, you're trying to negate arguments without actually making counter arguments.

3) You failed to actually offer a rebuttal. All it proved is she has a say. You can't just ignore or write off the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you while talking about issues that matter to them.

4) It literally is an exception to the rule. A person doesn't have to have a physics degree to say "rain is falling right now" when it's raining. And you saying "Pah! You don't have a degree in physics or meteorology! You aren't in a position to tell me whether or not it's raining!"

4b) Ex5 has been cleared with 1 Healer + 7 DPS. Is that proof Tanks aren't needed in the game or that there's a serious problem with content not needing Tanks?

5) If the clear is used to talk about the rest of the game, everyone gets a say. Moreover, the flaws are in the content design, TANK design and DPS design.

[ForteNightshade]

1) No, because it's used to draw conclusions about Healer Jobs IN ALL CONTENT, as well AS ALL CONTENT.

2) No, you're trying to negate arguments without actually making counter arguments.

3) You failed to actually offer a rebuttal. All it proved is she has a say. You can't just ignore or write off the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you while talking about issues that matter to them.

4) It literally is an exception to the rule. A person doesn't have to have a physics degree to say "rain is falling right now" when it's raining. And you saying "Pah! You don't have a degree in physics or meteorology! You aren't in a position to tell me whether or not it's raining!"

4b) Ex5 has been cleared with 1 Healer + 7 DPS. Is that proof Tanks aren't needed in the game or that there's a serious problem with content not needing Tanks?

5) If the clear is used to talk about the rest of the game, everyone gets a say. Moreover, the flaws are in the content design, TANK design and DPS design.

1) Despite the fact none of the changes will matter outside of high end content because they're never going to be necessary. Any changes made to healer design will only ever have an impact on higher level difficulties for the same reason balance changes are only made with Savage and Ultimate in mind.

2) The counter argument is their lack of experience in the subject they're discussing. Which is further emphasised by the claim "this is an exception" when we have ample evidence it isn't. They're arguing the lack of healing isn't an issue in content they don't do.

3) I'm not writing off her opinion because she disagrees with me and that's abundantly clear in my response. Gemina brought up her lack of experience being a criticism she's received and I pointed out it's entirely valid when she's dismissing criticism herself in content she doesn't do.

I'd touch on the others but WaxSw more or less covered my response. I'll bring up for 4b though because even taken at face value, it still speaks to the lackluster healer design and healing requirements. If a fight doesn't need tanks, then it certainly doesn't need healers because there's clearly not enough damage to threaten anyone. So... this isn't really the rebuttal you're trying to make it. Nevertheless, that isn't the case and Rubicante is an actual exception. We weren't doing zero tank runs of Zodiark or Hydaelyn on release. Nobody is solo tanking Ultimate or Savage. Only one role is routinely replaced whenever possible.

That isn't to say tank sustain and self healing hasn't gotten out of hand but like Wax's said, it's a lol moment that you blame literally everything but the healer role for a lack the of healing requirements. Nerfing or outright removing all tank sustain wouldn't suddenly make healer gameplay better. Bloodwhetting isn't what makes it so I can spam Glare 150+ in P5S.

[Knot_D]

The real Healers are the Tanks we met along the way?

That kinda suggests the problems are Tanks having too much healing...

Except GNB and DRK but also I don't think so, because what? There's one time where if your healer died and you don't have SMN or RDM, it's a guarantee wipe, but WAR can carry entire party with their Nascent and Shake it Off and I'm glad for it

[Katish]

Weren't Ultimates the reason healers haven't been touched i.e the reason to be. We've all known that was a lie, but seeing it is another thing. It doesn't matter that it takes coordination to do this, the fact it's even doable in the first place should ring alarms as healers reason to be is now questionable. This is why they shouldn't take the healing route when balancing healers and instead look to other mmos in how healing is operated as a support with good damage, damaging skills, combos etc. If they are not going to ramp up damage so this isn't possible, allow for support skills and damaging skills on the skillsets to make up for it [add back value to the role]. Increase enemy hp and difficulty so healers dmg and support is taken into consideration also. It wouldn't solve all the issues but it would be better than what they've been doing, bloating the kits with healing.

I have nothing against skilled players doing this without a healer, the issue lies that it's possible when the reason they gave that healer kits would not be touched is because difficult content would make it hard on us to do anything but and we should just go play ultimate. If ultimate doesn't require, than what is the healer purpose?

[Themarvin]

They should do something about the enrage timers, if that is possible... same with the old Ultimates so they fit in with the damage bonusses various jobs get each time you get a new expansion...

If you can do it without heals, take 30 seconds off the current enrage.

[Boblawblah]

Eh, 90%+ of players still need healers in their groups. A very small minority being able to clear content with a non-standard group is okay imo.