TOP cleared with no healers

[MisterNublet]

Instead of commending the efforts of those players, you are instead using it to chastise the dev team and the state of healing in this game.

The dev team 100% deserves to be chastise especially after Yoshi-Ps tone deaf "Go play ultimate" bs when he was questioned about the state of healers lack of healing/dps.

I can't even begin to express how shameful that is.

K.

What if TOP was cleared without players using their soulstones?

Then we would be questioning why it was labeled as an ultimate in the first place. If TOP was cleared without Tanks or DPS, then we would be having a discussion about those jobs.

Are we going to start saying that jobs are useless as well? I bring that up because Iirc, Creator was cleared by a group of players not using their Soulstones back during HW, and nothing like that was said. Those players were indeed congratulated. Also, I am actually genuinely curious to what kind of response a player would get if they went to the game's more populated areas during peak times, and started shouting this. At the very least, it would clue you in to how much the general playerbase cares about such things.

Irrelevant. This is a discussion about the current state of healers while involving on patch content being cleared without one of the major roles.

I enjoy it. So do a lot of other players. However, I don't think the problem is so much with healing as I do that other roles, particularly tanks have a ridiculous amount of self sustain. Of course, the typical response to this argument is I don't even know what I am talking about, and/or I enjoy mediocre gameplay and crap job design.

I'm happy that you still enjoy the healer role. If you keep having multiple people tell you the same thing, then there might be some truth to it.

Ok. Players skipping FFXIV to play other mmos will affect all the roles. Not just healers. Do you think just healer mains are going to jump ship to play other games? Also, quite often when I hop into PF when I am in the mood to heal content, those slots are often filled up, and I have to go as DPS instead, or do something else. Whose experience is more valid here?

I have quit other MMOs for the same issues FFXIVs healers are experiencing. I've seen others do the same.

I guess we're also forgetting the whole healer shortage this tier experienced and Yoshi-Ps heartfelt "please give healers a try" comment.

[MisterNublet]

Eh, 90%+ of players still need healers in their groups. A very small minority being able to clear content with a non-standard group is okay imo.

Designing a role around babysitting players doesn't make for compelling gameplay when the party you have doesn't require it.

Hence the majority of the complaints around the role is how absolutely mind-numbingly boring it is to play.

[Bsrking5]

Nothing to worry about, just in prep for 7.0 when healers are no longer required for duty finder queues. SE has heard the complaints about healers and their shortages. SE has decided to make them completely irrelevant. The new crit dungeons is just a test before going full scale.

[Reinha]

Its only healers, tanks have to tank LB and TB mechanics that force their existence and the dps checks in TOP are tight enough that removing dps is out of the question.

The common sense approach would be to add healing checks but those kind of lose their entire point if tanks and dps can use their AoE and single target heals to meet them. Dps can raise too. Tanks, melee, ranged and casters can also provide party wide mitigation so healers aren't needed for that either. So what are healers for?

[Gemina]

Eh, 90%+ of players still need healers in their groups. A very small minority being able to clear content with a non-standard group is okay imo.

Absolutely! What I equate this to is walking a tight rope without the security of a safety net. It's takes an exceptional amount of talent, skill, practice, and confidence. It's actually quite amazing.

When I saw this, my initial reaction wasn't defeatist and thinking, "Well, guess I'm no longer needed." How could it be when my general experience in game doesn't reflect that outside a handful of rare encounters. I watched a group clear TOP and know how ridiculously hard that encounter is. My initial reaction was, "Wow! These players are friggin awesome!"

Healers in FFXIV provide security. A very small percentage of players are so exceptionally skilled that they don't make mistakes. And time away from an encounter can have them forget, or enter it rusty, and having to get reacquainted with it to perform flawlessly. Humans play FFXIV. It's just how it is. We make mistakes from honest to outright silly ones all the time.

[Gemina]

The dev team 100% deserves to be chastise especially after Yoshi-Ps tone deaf "Go play ultimate" bs when he was questioned about the state of healers lack of healing/dps.



K.



Then we would be questioning why it was labeled as an ultimate in the first place. If TOP was cleared without Tanks or DPS, then we would be having a discussion about those jobs.


Irrelevant. This is a discussion about the current state of healers while involving on patch content being cleared without one of the major roles.



I'm happy that you still enjoy the healer role. If you keep having multiple people tell you the same thing, then there might be some truth to it.



I have quit other MMOs for the same issues FFXIVs healers are experiencing. I've seen others do the same.

I guess we're also forgetting the whole healer shortage this tier experienced and Yoshi-Ps heartfelt "please give healers a try" comment.

I'm not getting into this today. I don't have the energy, time, or patience for a hackneyed healer debate. We will just have to agree to disagree bud. Try to enjoy the game.

Huge congratulations to this team of players.

[MatchaokaCha]

I suggest SE just change the healer role into a support role at this point. There's more benefit to changing that role so they can effectively buff+dps and heal without SE's weird stereotype that healers need to just become walking elixirs. Then again, the execs have to actually have the sapience to hire actual competent job designers to their small indie roster of 4 devs in charge of battle sys. and job design in the first place.

[ForteNightshade]

Exception is never the rule.

Every single fight in this entire game has been solo healed on content. All four tanks, yes even Dark Knight, can blow through 90 dungeons without a healer. Hydaelyn and Zodiark were killed the week on Endwalker's launch without healers. While this is an exception at the Ultimate level, it does speak on to the poor design of both healers and the content itself because even Extremes shouldn't be killable at their relevant ilvl without a healer. That doesn't take away from the accomplishment.

Instead of commending the efforts of those players, you are instead using it to chastise the dev team and the state of healing in this game.

You can do both. They aren't mutually exclusive. This is simply strawmanning.

What if TOP was cleared without players using their soulstones? Are we going to start saying that jobs are useless as well? I bring that up because Iirc, Creator was cleared by a group of players not using their Soulstones back during HW, and nothing like that was said. Those players were indeed congratulated. Also, I am actually genuinely curious to what kind of response a player would get if they went to the game's more populated areas during peak times, and started shouting this. At the very least, it would clue you in to how much the general playerbase cares about such things.

That would just mean TOP is woefully undertuned and a complete joke. Classes simply don't have anywhere close to the kits and damage necessary to complete an Ultimate. As for Creator example. Do you mean normal mode because that never happened at the Savage level, which is all that matters as normal doesn't have an enrage. It's simply a war of attrition. So long as bodies are alive, you'll win, eventually. If you have video evidence to the contrary, I'll happily stand corrected.

Considering the general playerbase is among those upset with how healing in dungeons is practically non-existent, the response might be what you think it will. Nonetheless, it's wholly irrelevant because, once again, acknowledging the accomplishment of eight exceptionally skilled players and the poor state of healer design in FFXIV aren't mutually exclusive. Not to mention, your average player isn't going to really care one way or another in content that don't even do. If you asked those same players was balance in Abyssos good. They'll either shrug, admitting they don't know or may even say yes despite it objectively being false given how many jobs were buffed afterwards.

I enjoy it. So do a lot of other players. However, I don't think the problem is so much with healing as I do that other roles, particularly tanks have a ridiculous amount of self sustain. Also encounter design in general. Of course, the typical rebuttal to this argument is I don't even know what I am talking about, and/or I enjoy mediocre gameplay and crap job design.

You don't partake in high end content, which is what this discussion centers around. I recall you not even having a character at 90 for months into Endwalker's life cycle. Which is fine... until you want to comment on the healing requirements (or lack thereof) in Savage and Ultimate. You don't know what you're talking about because you literally don't do the content. That is an entirely fair rebuttal in this context.

Now I will agree tank's have an absurd amount of healing, which is a factor. However, nerfing all of it to the ground won't make healer gameplay in high end content any better. You'll still be spamming a single button more than your entire kit combined. All it does is maybe force the occasional Cure II/E.Diag/Adlo/Benefic II. Trading a Glare cast for one of those isn't exactly riveting gameplay.

[Stormpeaks]

It's not a gotcha. The gotcha is what's being attempted by saying a set of skilled players cleared TOP without healers. Exception is never the rule. Instead of commending the efforts of those players, you are instead using it to chastise the dev team and the state of healing in this game. I can't even begin to express how shameful that is. What if TOP was cleared without players using their soulstones? Are we going to start saying that jobs are useless as well? I bring that up because Iirc, Creator was cleared by a group of players not using their Soulstones back during HW, and nothing like that was said. Those players were indeed congratulated. Also, I am actually genuinely curious to what kind of response a player would get if they went to the game's more populated areas during peak times, and started shouting this. At the very least, it would clue you in to how much the general playerbase cares about such things.


I enjoy it. So do a lot of other players. However, I don't think the problem is so much with healing as I do that other roles, particularly tanks have a ridiculous amount of self sustain. Also encounter design in general. Of course, the typical rebuttal to this argument is I don't even know what I am talking about, and/or I enjoy mediocre gameplay and crap job design.


Ok. Players skipping FFXIV to play other mmos will affect all the roles. Not just healers. Do you think just healer mains are going to jump ship to play other games? Also, quite often when I hop into PF when I am in the mood to heal content, those slots are often filled up, and I have to go as DPS instead, or do something else. Whose experience is more valid here?

the devs are not at fault for healers being absolutely terrible guys, it's obviously these guys just being too good, it cant be the devs, NOT THE DEVS ! it's the players guys ! Leave alone the multimillion dollar company !

[Boblawblah]

You don't partake in high end content, which is what this discussion centers around. I recall you not even having a character at 90 for months into Endwalker's life cycle. Which is fine... until you want to comment on the healing requirements (or lack thereof) in Savage and Ultimate. You don't know what you're talking about because you literally don't do the content. That is an entirely fair rebuttal in this context.

Now I will agree tank's have an absurd amount of healing, which is a factor. However, nerfing all of it to the ground won't make healer gameplay in high end content any better. You'll still be spamming a single button more than your entire kit combined. All it does is maybe force the occasional Cure II/E.Diag/Adlo/Benefic II. Trading a Glare cast for one of those isn't exactly riveting gameplay.

So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?