Ok asking for advice

[Lunaxia]

Completely disagree with you here.

Not always when you've literally just finished the MSQ, you're still coming to grips with what DPS checks, procs and GCDs even are, want to enjoy content and are feeling unsure of yourself. It can be overwhelming and alienating to new players, especially those new to the concept of raiding who aren't used to time limits and don't even know what enrages are yet. My "premise" takes into account not everyone views content the way others do, and to that end won't necessarily respond well to a standardised, hyper-efficient approach, because not everyone is the same - a concept you seem to be struggling with. You're actually outing yourself as the kind of player you flat out refute to be by calling taking individual differences into consideration "coddling" and the weirdly defensive tone you're taking to the point you can't even acknowledge basic fact. And I'm not sure about the supposed efficacy of preventing hurt feelings if they're put off even getting into the duty, or if they're made to feel inadequate for failing to meet checks fresh out the gate instead of being allowed to try their hand at the content and improve.

No, I'm basing what I've said on what you've written and how it comes across, and apparently you cannot accept a contrary point of view. OP has already stated he found the information helpful anyway despite that, so why are you so up in arms about it?

Ah, of course the problem with PF lies with new raiders for not taking "objective, clear and concise" advice and "not taking things personally", and absolutely nothing to do with raiders themselves, who are of course never rude, hostile, condescending, off-putting or completely unaware of how they actually sound to other people. It's those gosh darned newbies and their obsession with being treated with basic patience, consideration and respect coddled! It's not as if Savage raiders have a reputation for that sort of thing or anything, my, no.

Actually, OP has said himself none of them particularly care about gear and that they just want to do it for the experience and having fun together - as I pointed out is often the case. Of course it's a given that beating it would be nice, but your original post shrugged off basic considerations that are important to a lot of people, such as it is here, like the possibility he doesn't want anyone dropping out or that failure through keeping that in mind wouldn't actually be viewed as wasting his time, and that's what I've been saying all along. Fortunately OP is aware of what he wants and can take the relevant advice he's looking for, but I felt it to prudent to say in the event that might not be so. Is the fact some people really aren't that bothered about loot and clears over just being with friends such a foreign concept to you?

[Rongway]

In re: Stone, Sky, Sea
Remember that being able to kill the dummy doesn't mean that someone is ready for a real life savage or extreme fight. Failing the dummy means that someone is definitely not ready because they still need to iron out their rotation or upgrade their gear so that they can kill a stationary target with no mechanics. However, being able to kill the dummy doesn't automatically mean that someone can still do a good rotation while handling the savage mechanics. Especially with a group of people new to raiding, you and your friends will need to be patient while people build up the raiding experience not to panic over the mechanics, and at least one of you will need sharp enough eyes and reflexes to understand what went wrong when things go wrong (things absolutely will go wrong sometimes, and that's okay) so that mistakes can get fixed for the next attempt.

Some more self conscious players might get embarrassed over messing up and think the group will do better without them. Disabuse them of that notion quickly. People will find other things to mess up after they're gone; they might as well stick around and also learn from the experience so that when everyone eventually gets it they can share in the victory.

[Celine_Aurora]

Completely disagree with you here. Beating a dummy that represents the DPS check for the fight you are up against is an empowering feeling, and it brings a sense of peace and excitement knowing you just proved you can do it to yourself.

The worst thing my old static could have done to "empower" me for my first Savage experience was telling me to practice on the P5S dummy before our first raid. I killed it handily because of course, went to raid with them feeling like I had already surpassed their expectations and got brutally beat down for three hours that made me so miserable I swore off the game entirely for a dozen days.

If they asked me to spend that time to start practicing the fight in PF and try to catch with them up a little and get an idea of what raiding actually is in this game, I might not have felt like my only recourse was to leave them.

Personally thois convinced me that as a first timer, these guys in the OP should not worry about testing their dps before having some decent prog down for the first fight, or at least do it concurrently. After all, dps only matters if you are trying to get a kill, yeah? And your rotation is relatively easy to fix when needed, compared to learning dances.

Edited to add: Also how good you can keep your rotation up on a stationary target ends up being almost meaningless the first time you're trying that during a fight doing mechs.

[Jeeqbit]

The worst thing my old static could have done to "empower" me for my first Savage experience was telling me to practice on the P5S dummy before our first raid. I killed it handily because of course, went to raid with them feeling like I had already surpassed their expectations and got brutally beat down for three hours that made me so miserable I swore off the game entirely for a dozen days.

Personally, I test against the fourth floor dummy instead (such as P8S). By the time I'm that far my gear will probably be better anyway, but I do it anyway.

Also how good you can keep your rotation up on a stationary target ends up being almost meaningless the first time you're trying that during a fight doing mechs.

While true, how can you do your rotation correctly in a fight if you can't even do it while stationary? How can you beat the fight if you do the rotation so poorly that the dummy is at half health when the time runs out?

Rotations are not that hard but it's a simple check for a new player at least to see if they are doing something extremely wrong.

[Celine_Aurora]

While true, how can you do your rotation correctly in a fight if you can't even do it while stationary? How can you beat the fight if you do the rotation so poorly that the dummy is at half health when the time runs out?

That would tie in to what I said about dps only being important when killing. Sure everyone should constantly test their rotation while progging too - gotta learn how to keep it up with mechs after all - but rotational mistakes that would you cost the kill aren't actually relevant until you have progged enough to see the kill.

I'm not saying testing on the dummy is completely useless, i'm saying that it should be a secondary focus to learning what the fight specifically asks of a player.

[Mcg55ss]

Finally getting respond to some of these sorry I usually would have been on earlier but work started way more hectic today. As for everybody's concerned about the dummy DPS I played WoW from 05-22 so I'm well aware that what you doing dummy it's not relevant to an actual fight because of mechanics, positionals sometimes even range. However with us not starting again until later into the patch (like I said I have 1 going to visit dad getting out of hospital, 2 going to family in late June, one going on vacation in early July for 2 weeks) I am going to recommend the dummy just so people can practice their rotation and do some self-improvement to get ready for the fights And talking to a group last night we agree starting in EX 1st as a team will probably better for us and learning what we're doing and get us used to handling mechanics. Gear allocation is not an issue, our goals are not an issue because we all agree on what this first tier should be which is mostly us just getting used to raiding and getting more developed in this. I addressed any concerns yesterday most are confident in the group and confident and criticizing each other respectfully and helping each other where we can. We also picked up another member I guess yesterday that wants to go with us and be a part of the group they seem to fit in well and understand where we are they are also another new player they are at the end of SHB now. They also happily want to be part of the FC but are staying in their current one until their level because we don't have the XP buff yet.

[Ath192]

won't necessarily respond well to a standardised, hyper-efficient approach, because not everyone is the same - a concept you seem to be struggling with. You're actually outing yourself as the kind of player you flat out refute to be by calling taking individual differences into consideration "coddling" and the weirdly defensive tone you're taking to the point you can't even acknowledge basic fact.

That is what raiding is. Savage is about being as efficient as possible to get the kill, now if you just want to go in there for laughs and kicks by all means do so. But you will have to be efficient to get the kill. This is just fact. Based on who are still friends and who still talk to each other in my circles I can tell you it was the ones who respected each other's time enough to put in effort and prepare for the fight. I like the subtle attack like you know how I behave in a raid setting. At the end of the day I do prefer to tackle fights with friends who want to put the effort forward to know what they are doing and carry their weight instead of the ones that think the boss will die from the power of friendship. The latter are usually the ones others have to carry. It breeds resentment by the way.

No, I'm basing what I've said on what you've written and how it comes across, and apparently you cannot accept a contrary point of view. OP has already stated he found the information helpful anyway despite that, so why are you so up in arms about it?

You are right. He did choose to recommend the dummies and start with an EX. Maybe I can't or can accept a contrary point of view but I do get invested in a topic when I'm passionate about helping people succeed. I don't believe in shielding people from the truth. They will encounter bad attitudes in the PF, their members WILL give up and leave if they can't get any kills. They may be mature enough to stay friends but very few people stick around to carry others who don't bother to put the effort in after a while. This is just the reality of it.

Ah, of course the problem with PF lies with new raiders for not taking "objective, clear and concise" advice and "not taking things personally", and absolutely nothing to do with raiders themselves, who are of course never rude, hostile, condescending, off-putting or completely unaware of how they actually sound to other people. It's those gosh darned newbies and their obsession with being treated with basic patience, consideration and respect coddled! It's not as if Savage raiders have a reputation for that sort of thing or anything, my, no.

I wasn't talking about those people, but they do exist, and they will run into them. If they can't handle it they may not want to PF.

Actually, OP has said himself none of them particularly care about gear and that they just want to do it for the experience and having fun together - as I pointed out is often the case. Of course it's a given that beating it would be nice, but your original post shrugged off basic considerations that are important to a lot of people, such as it is here, like the possibility he doesn't want anyone dropping out or that failure through keeping that in mind wouldn't actually be viewed as wasting his time, and that's what I've been saying all along. Fortunately OP is aware of what he wants and can take the relevant advice he's looking for, but I felt it to prudent to say in the event that might not be so. Is the fact some people really aren't that bothered about loot and clears over just being with friends such a foreign concept to you?

It didn't shrug them off. YOU shrugged them off for me I never said I didn't care about basic considerations. They are basic enough for most people to be aware of them. Nobody wants people dropping off, but it happens. You can fail a few times but as soon as other people feel they are walled they are feeling like they are wasting their time. I don't know of any static that knows they can't do a fight and just log on every raid night to have fun wiping at the same spot over and over for days. The nicer members start making excuses and ghost you and the more straight forward ones just leave.

[Ath192]

The worst thing my old static could have done to "empower" me for my first Savage experience was telling me to practice on the P5S dummy before our first raid. I killed it handily because of course, went to raid with them feeling like I had already surpassed their expectations and got brutally beat down for three hours that made me so miserable I swore off the game entirely for a dozen days.

If they asked me to spend that time to start practicing the fight in PF and try to catch with them up a little and get an idea of what raiding actually is in this game, I might not have felt like my only recourse was to leave them.

Personally thois convinced me that as a first timer, these guys in the OP should not worry about testing their dps before having some decent prog down for the first fight, or at least do it concurrently. After all, dps only matters if you are trying to get a kill, yeah? And your rotation is relatively easy to fix when needed, compared to learning dances.

Edited to add: Also how good you can keep your rotation up on a stationary target ends up being almost meaningless the first time you're trying that during a fight doing mechs.

It almost sounds like they knew what was coming and tried to prepare you for it. But instead of being thankful for the tips you chose to let your insecurities win and dropped off. If they were being mean to you than by all accounts you should have left, but that's not what I'm getting from your post. I don't see your experience having been better by not doing the dummy, if anything, its would've been the same 3 hours, but worse.

You don't learn and keep up your rotation in a dummy for the first time you try a fight. You do it so that when the fight is mastered people don't have to wait around for you to get good at it while hitting enrage every night. It's something you bring with you so that you can finish the fight without enraging after people went through the effort of doing the mechanics right.

Hell, I've been raiding for years and anytime I try a new job I learn my rotation on a dummy. This isn't even a noob tip. It's a pro tip too. You can see others do it as well by looking at Jeeqbit's post.

[Celine_Aurora]

It almost sounds like they knew what was coming and tried to prepare you for it. But instead of being thankful for the tips you chose to let your insecurities win and dropped off.

That's like... The opposite of what I wrote.

They gave me advice on keeping up my rotation that I did not need and they did not need (they were far from the kill too, progging Devour and trying to get consistently to Ruby 4 and 5) and did nothing to prepare me for what the fight actually demanded. They did not give me the advice that I would have given myself if I was in their shoes: before worrying about your dps, practice the fight and try to catch up to our progression point.

Eventually, both the practice and the dummy are important, for sure. But killing the dummy did not prepare me for a good raiding experience with them, and what would have gotten me better prepared was not demanded.

I'm not saying the dummy is useless or that I don't practice rotations, I am saying, it's not a priority for someone who is approaching Savage for the first time, like OP and their static.

[Mcg55ss]

Guys I love that you're being passionate and want to help me, I take everybody's info and positive light and try to see if there's anything I can use. On this note though there's no reason to bicker with each other on what y'all think the best strategy for me is. Each and every person in here that helped in this discussion came to raiding through different means had different experiences both positive and negative and has taken different stuff away from each experience which is why I asked for everybody's advice because collectively you all have more experiences than I have and I could use your experiences to help be a better leader to my group in a game that I'm not familiar with doing this content. However arguing somebody because their experience is different or what you perceive is better is not what they agree with us not necessary because in the end I am the leader and I will decide what I take from this discussion and what I believe is best for my group. I am open for tips suggestions experiences that you had that might better my experience than anything you think that could help us grow and develop more as a cohesive unit. In the end you are just here coming to help me by giving me what you've experienced and what you think would be good to know there's no reason to hate on each other because we don't know what everybody's background is, what they consider for in their static content, what they worked on and clearing (except Dixie as she has multiple Ultimate clears and is obsessed with Ult raiding as far as my knowledge so I assume she is very much on the min/maxing more hardcore side). Thank you for your tips and you're more than open to keep giving them and I appreciate every one of them but don't fight over it there's no reason there's no guarantee I'm going to take their tip there's I'm seeking advice but just because I received some advice doesn't mean I personally agree nor will follow all of it. TY