Ok asking for advice

[Lunaxia]

Completely disagree with you here.

Not always when you've literally just finished the MSQ, you're still coming to grips with what DPS checks, procs and GCDs even are, want to enjoy content and are feeling unsure of yourself. It can be overwhelming and alienating to new players, especially those new to the concept of raiding who aren't used to time limits and don't even know what enrages are yet. My "premise" takes into account not everyone views content the way others do, and to that end won't necessarily respond well to a standardised, hyper-efficient approach, because not everyone is the same - a concept you seem to be struggling with. You're actually outing yourself as the kind of player you flat out refute to be by calling taking individual differences into consideration "coddling" and the weirdly defensive tone you're taking to the point you can't even acknowledge basic fact. And I'm not sure about the supposed efficacy of preventing hurt feelings if they're put off even getting into the duty, or if they're made to feel inadequate for failing to meet checks fresh out the gate instead of being allowed to try their hand at the content and improve.

No, I'm basing what I've said on what you've written and how it comes across, and apparently you cannot accept a contrary point of view. OP has already stated he found the information helpful anyway despite that, so why are you so up in arms about it?

Ah, of course the problem with PF lies with new raiders for not taking "objective, clear and concise" advice and "not taking things personally", and absolutely nothing to do with raiders themselves, who are of course never rude, hostile, condescending, off-putting or completely unaware of how they actually sound to other people. It's those gosh darned newbies and their obsession with being treated with basic patience, consideration and respect coddled! It's not as if Savage raiders have a reputation for that sort of thing or anything, my, no.

Actually, OP has said himself none of them particularly care about gear and that they just want to do it for the experience and having fun together - as I pointed out is often the case. Of course it's a given that beating it would be nice, but your original post shrugged off basic considerations that are important to a lot of people, such as it is here, like the possibility he doesn't want anyone dropping out or that failure through keeping that in mind wouldn't actually be viewed as wasting his time, and that's what I've been saying all along. Fortunately OP is aware of what he wants and can take the relevant advice he's looking for, but I felt it to prudent to say in the event that might not be so. Is the fact some people really aren't that bothered about loot and clears over just being with friends such a foreign concept to you?

[Ath192]

won't necessarily respond well to a standardised, hyper-efficient approach, because not everyone is the same - a concept you seem to be struggling with. You're actually outing yourself as the kind of player you flat out refute to be by calling taking individual differences into consideration "coddling" and the weirdly defensive tone you're taking to the point you can't even acknowledge basic fact.

That is what raiding is. Savage is about being as efficient as possible to get the kill, now if you just want to go in there for laughs and kicks by all means do so. But you will have to be efficient to get the kill. This is just fact. Based on who are still friends and who still talk to each other in my circles I can tell you it was the ones who respected each other's time enough to put in effort and prepare for the fight. I like the subtle attack like you know how I behave in a raid setting. At the end of the day I do prefer to tackle fights with friends who want to put the effort forward to know what they are doing and carry their weight instead of the ones that think the boss will die from the power of friendship. The latter are usually the ones others have to carry. It breeds resentment by the way.

No, I'm basing what I've said on what you've written and how it comes across, and apparently you cannot accept a contrary point of view. OP has already stated he found the information helpful anyway despite that, so why are you so up in arms about it?

You are right. He did choose to recommend the dummies and start with an EX. Maybe I can't or can accept a contrary point of view but I do get invested in a topic when I'm passionate about helping people succeed. I don't believe in shielding people from the truth. They will encounter bad attitudes in the PF, their members WILL give up and leave if they can't get any kills. They may be mature enough to stay friends but very few people stick around to carry others who don't bother to put the effort in after a while. This is just the reality of it.

Ah, of course the problem with PF lies with new raiders for not taking "objective, clear and concise" advice and "not taking things personally", and absolutely nothing to do with raiders themselves, who are of course never rude, hostile, condescending, off-putting or completely unaware of how they actually sound to other people. It's those gosh darned newbies and their obsession with being treated with basic patience, consideration and respect coddled! It's not as if Savage raiders have a reputation for that sort of thing or anything, my, no.

I wasn't talking about those people, but they do exist, and they will run into them. If they can't handle it they may not want to PF.

Actually, OP has said himself none of them particularly care about gear and that they just want to do it for the experience and having fun together - as I pointed out is often the case. Of course it's a given that beating it would be nice, but your original post shrugged off basic considerations that are important to a lot of people, such as it is here, like the possibility he doesn't want anyone dropping out or that failure through keeping that in mind wouldn't actually be viewed as wasting his time, and that's what I've been saying all along. Fortunately OP is aware of what he wants and can take the relevant advice he's looking for, but I felt it to prudent to say in the event that might not be so. Is the fact some people really aren't that bothered about loot and clears over just being with friends such a foreign concept to you?

It didn't shrug them off. YOU shrugged them off for me I never said I didn't care about basic considerations. They are basic enough for most people to be aware of them. Nobody wants people dropping off, but it happens. You can fail a few times but as soon as other people feel they are walled they are feeling like they are wasting their time. I don't know of any static that knows they can't do a fight and just log on every raid night to have fun wiping at the same spot over and over for days. The nicer members start making excuses and ghost you and the more straight forward ones just leave.

[Lunaxia]

That is what raiding is. Savage is about being as efficient as possible...

There's some pretty strong irony here when you accuse me of basing my view point off "being mad at people who have offended me" when your post reads like the result of a bit of a chip on your shoulder over some past arguments that have embittered you against other players to the degree you struggle comprehending anyone else's perspective outside of your own. And with how well you deal with criticism, I can't help but feel like the cause for these unfortunate experiences might stem in part from your own issues and how you approach things rather than placing the blame squarely at other people's door.

You did shrug them off, and your inability to accept perhaps there are factors you didn't take into account and obsession with being unconditionally right is the only reason for this completely fruitless discussion. For the record, you might want to take a closer look at your own attitude if statics/ raiding has been so fraught with problems for you, therein might lie your answer.

[Ath192]

There's some pretty strong irony here when you accuse me of basing my view point off "being mad at people who have offended me" when your post reads like the result of a bit of a chip on your shoulder over some past arguments that have embittered you against other players to the degree you struggle comprehending anyone else's perspective outside of your own. And with how well you deal with criticism, I can't help but feel like the cause for these unfortunate experiences might stem in part from your own issues and how you approach things rather than placing the blame squarely at other people's door.

You did shrug them off, and your inability to accept perhaps there are factors you didn't take into account and obsession with being unconditionally right is the only reason for this completely fruitless discussion. For the record, you might want to take a closer look at your own attitude if statics/ raiding has been so fraught with problems for you, therein might lie your answer.

The only chip on the shoulder I have is you misleading people. I've been pretty successful at raiding so far thank you, I'm afraid your advice comes from having people explaining to you what you did wrong and you gaslighting them about how that's not the right approach and how offended you are. That's counter productive.