Ok asking for advice

[Lunaxia]

Yes, I was very cold and objective. And I get the...

I think those people (or those they fought with) have more problems either with themselves or those friendships than they're aware of if Savage is enough to tear them apart, but I'm aware this is an MMO we're talking about here.

Like I said, there's certainly good advice from a practical perspective, and input from experienced raiders can be invaluable. But recalling my early experiences, and having also been in OP's position as a leader of a group of first-timers on a few occasions who were incredibly reluctant to try because they didn't believe they were inherently good enough and were wary of encountering similarly cut-throat attitudes, I think it's important to remember the human element here and that when you are raiding you are dealing with people, not a composite of numbers on a screen. The sad thing is they were actually really interested in Savage, but saw it as the domain of some hardcore, super-player collective and were convinced they had no place there due to the sense of gatekeeping surrounding it with obsessions over logs and achievements and the like. And again, some people do play it and get a sense of satisfaction from that perspective, and that's fine - but that's not what it's all about, and certainly not for everybody who plays. I just wanted to reinforce that, for those who perhaps weren't aware.

It may come off as cold but I did ask for advice.

I'm glad you've been able to find some useful information, and that you can take what you personally need from it and apply it to your own situation as needs be. I know other people in your position can find it a bit daunting and wanted to add in such approaches to Savage are not universal, and it's more accessible than people sometimes realise and more than capable of being a source of fun challenges for groups to enjoy, since that can often be forgotten about amidst all the hubbub about rotations and numbers. I hope it works out for you.

[Ath192]

I think those people (or those they fought with) have more problems either with themselves or those friendships than they're aware of if Savage is enough to tear them apart, but I'm aware this is an MMO we're talking about here.

Like I said, there's certainly good advice from a practical perspective, and input from experienced raiders can be invaluable. But recalling my early experiences, and having also been in OP's position as a leader of a group of first-timers on a few occasions who were incredibly reluctant to try because they didn't believe they were inherently good enough and were wary of encountering similarly cut-throat attitudes, I think it's important to remember the human element here and that when you are raiding you are dealing with people, not a composite of numbers on a screen. The sad thing is they were actually really interested in Savage, but saw it as the domain of some hardcore, super-player collective and were convinced they had no place there due to the sense of gatekeeping surrounding it with obsessions over logs and achievements and the like. And again, some people do play it and get a sense of satisfaction from that perspective, and that's fine - but that's not what it's all about, and certainly not for everybody who plays. I just wanted to reinforce that, for those who perhaps weren't aware.

You highlight my post on what's convenient for you. For one I don't like being conflated with people who gatekeep raiding, that's not acceptable to me especially when I'm trying to help out. I would thank you not to associate me with those people when you quote me like the example is somehow related.

For another, if you knew people who were reluctant to try raiding I don't know why you as the leader were pushing them to do something they were reluctant to do to begin with. People don't have to raid if they aren't comfortable with it. And for someone who talks about the human element you've really done a stellar job at dehumanizing me like I'm this robot.

Your post rubs me the wrong way and I feel its hypocritical to take aim at someone who's trying to help and talk about empathy at the same time. Maybe if you are going to be considerate, be considerate of everyone in the conversation. I think you should know that because what you've said here really does bother me when you quote me and go railing against people who seem to have offended you in the past. I felt like I had to say something about this.

[Lunaxia]

You highlight my post...

Far from it, I've already said there's plenty of good practical advice there. But when your first thought with a bunch of new players who are friends looking to try Savage is to immediately get them on the dummy for DPS checks - which feels like a quick way to foster self-doubt and kill off enthusiasm - and advising OP in the event of "drop offs" I feel like you've already forgotten what actually matters to some people. Likewise, what you consider saving yourself a "waste of time" could still be a worthwhile and enjoyable experience for others even if it doesn't play out the way they hoped. It does come off as cold and unnecessarily procedural to me, regardless of whether that offends you or not, and reminiscent of the attitudes I'm talking about here.

You've also managed to miss where I said they were very interested in Savage and wanted to try, after having grown accustomed to casual endgame - but had adopted the myth you have to be a certain type of player to be able to even attempt it and were nervous about encountering backlash for not immediately meeting certain standards. It takes time to adjust, and easing them into it and enjoying the fights rather than scaring them off with DPS numbers was crucial to breaking through it.

I've been doing Savage long enough to know that it's unfortunately common for raiders to fail to realise approaches they consider effective or practical can come across as callous and potentially hurtful, especially if they've been playing a while. It's a strategy designed for efficiency, but the cynicism (which anyone who has been raiding for any length of time can be prone to) that arises from it can blind you to such obvious facts as this is a game you are playing with others, and that was all I wanted to say. I can't help but feel I've touched a nerve here, and when you phrase it as "railing off against people who seem to have offended me" for pointing out the impact such views can have on the other side of the screen, it doesn't really convince me any of what I've said here is unwarranted.

[Ath192]

Far from it, I've already said there's plenty of good practical advice there. But when your first thought with a bunch of new players who are friends looking to try Savage is to immediately get them on the dummy for DPS checks - which feels like a quick way to foster self-doubt and kill off enthusiasm

...

I can't help but feel I've touched a nerve here, and when you phrase it as "railing off against people who seem to have offended me" for pointing out the impact such views can have on the other side of the screen, it doesn't really convince me any of what I've said here is unwarranted.

Completely disagree with you here. Beating a dummy that represents the DPS check for the fight you are up against is an empowering feeling, and it brings a sense of peace and excitement knowing you just proved you can do it to yourself. Your entire premise is something completely intangible and circumstantial because some people prefer to be coddled and others prefer information to be handed to them straight up without embellishment. Feelings matter, I assure you more feelings are hurt when people don't know if they are the problem or not than when they know they are well prepared and practiced.

Your perspective on my phrasing bespeaks to your own cynicism and assumptions of my post. Since much of a dialogue can also change depending on a persons tone and inflection you have no idea if I was doing so with a kind tone or a curt one, and yet you chose to assume. In my mind, it was helpful but to the point. You turned something that was supposed to be positive into a negative, not because anyone asked you to, but because you chose to, and wanted to.

The biggest reason I take issue with it is because that attitude has turned PF into a toxic cesspool. Maybe someone messes up and another just objectively says what went wrong, because that is what the group needs to figure out how to succeed on the next pull, and yet this is somehow unacceptable because people will get offended. So next time, the players instead of trying to collaborate and work and actually speaking about what went wrong just drop off without saying anything and the party disbands, which leads to a lot of frustration. Instead of chastising people for presenting information in a clear and concise manner newer raiders should be encouraged to take responsibility and not take things personally since they are working to raid together, and that requires communication. Not doing so and dancing around the subject makes more enemies than friends I assure you.

To quote your first paragraph "what you consider saving yourself a "waste of time" could still be a worthwhile and enjoyable experience for others even if it doesn't play out the way they hoped" the key understanding here is that they hope to succeed, and thus they will need objective knowledge in order to do so.

Nobody is going to come out happier having failed a raid tier than having beat it.

[Lunaxia]

Completely disagree with you here.

Not always when you've literally just finished the MSQ, you're still coming to grips with what DPS checks, procs and GCDs even are, want to enjoy content and are feeling unsure of yourself. It can be overwhelming and alienating to new players, especially those new to the concept of raiding who aren't used to time limits and don't even know what enrages are yet. My "premise" takes into account not everyone views content the way others do, and to that end won't necessarily respond well to a standardised, hyper-efficient approach, because not everyone is the same - a concept you seem to be struggling with. You're actually outing yourself as the kind of player you flat out refute to be by calling taking individual differences into consideration "coddling" and the weirdly defensive tone you're taking to the point you can't even acknowledge basic fact. And I'm not sure about the supposed efficacy of preventing hurt feelings if they're put off even getting into the duty, or if they're made to feel inadequate for failing to meet checks fresh out the gate instead of being allowed to try their hand at the content and improve.

No, I'm basing what I've said on what you've written and how it comes across, and apparently you cannot accept a contrary point of view. OP has already stated he found the information helpful anyway despite that, so why are you so up in arms about it?

Ah, of course the problem with PF lies with new raiders for not taking "objective, clear and concise" advice and "not taking things personally", and absolutely nothing to do with raiders themselves, who are of course never rude, hostile, condescending, off-putting or completely unaware of how they actually sound to other people. It's those gosh darned newbies and their obsession with being treated with basic patience, consideration and respect coddled! It's not as if Savage raiders have a reputation for that sort of thing or anything, my, no.

Actually, OP has said himself none of them particularly care about gear and that they just want to do it for the experience and having fun together - as I pointed out is often the case. Of course it's a given that beating it would be nice, but your original post shrugged off basic considerations that are important to a lot of people, such as it is here, like the possibility he doesn't want anyone dropping out or that failure through keeping that in mind wouldn't actually be viewed as wasting his time, and that's what I've been saying all along. Fortunately OP is aware of what he wants and can take the relevant advice he's looking for, but I felt it to prudent to say in the event that might not be so. Is the fact some people really aren't that bothered about loot and clears over just being with friends such a foreign concept to you?

[Ath192]

won't necessarily respond well to a standardised, hyper-efficient approach, because not everyone is the same - a concept you seem to be struggling with. You're actually outing yourself as the kind of player you flat out refute to be by calling taking individual differences into consideration "coddling" and the weirdly defensive tone you're taking to the point you can't even acknowledge basic fact.

That is what raiding is. Savage is about being as efficient as possible to get the kill, now if you just want to go in there for laughs and kicks by all means do so. But you will have to be efficient to get the kill. This is just fact. Based on who are still friends and who still talk to each other in my circles I can tell you it was the ones who respected each other's time enough to put in effort and prepare for the fight. I like the subtle attack like you know how I behave in a raid setting. At the end of the day I do prefer to tackle fights with friends who want to put the effort forward to know what they are doing and carry their weight instead of the ones that think the boss will die from the power of friendship. The latter are usually the ones others have to carry. It breeds resentment by the way.

No, I'm basing what I've said on what you've written and how it comes across, and apparently you cannot accept a contrary point of view. OP has already stated he found the information helpful anyway despite that, so why are you so up in arms about it?

You are right. He did choose to recommend the dummies and start with an EX. Maybe I can't or can accept a contrary point of view but I do get invested in a topic when I'm passionate about helping people succeed. I don't believe in shielding people from the truth. They will encounter bad attitudes in the PF, their members WILL give up and leave if they can't get any kills. They may be mature enough to stay friends but very few people stick around to carry others who don't bother to put the effort in after a while. This is just the reality of it.

Ah, of course the problem with PF lies with new raiders for not taking "objective, clear and concise" advice and "not taking things personally", and absolutely nothing to do with raiders themselves, who are of course never rude, hostile, condescending, off-putting or completely unaware of how they actually sound to other people. It's those gosh darned newbies and their obsession with being treated with basic patience, consideration and respect coddled! It's not as if Savage raiders have a reputation for that sort of thing or anything, my, no.

I wasn't talking about those people, but they do exist, and they will run into them. If they can't handle it they may not want to PF.

Actually, OP has said himself none of them particularly care about gear and that they just want to do it for the experience and having fun together - as I pointed out is often the case. Of course it's a given that beating it would be nice, but your original post shrugged off basic considerations that are important to a lot of people, such as it is here, like the possibility he doesn't want anyone dropping out or that failure through keeping that in mind wouldn't actually be viewed as wasting his time, and that's what I've been saying all along. Fortunately OP is aware of what he wants and can take the relevant advice he's looking for, but I felt it to prudent to say in the event that might not be so. Is the fact some people really aren't that bothered about loot and clears over just being with friends such a foreign concept to you?

It didn't shrug them off. YOU shrugged them off for me I never said I didn't care about basic considerations. They are basic enough for most people to be aware of them. Nobody wants people dropping off, but it happens. You can fail a few times but as soon as other people feel they are walled they are feeling like they are wasting their time. I don't know of any static that knows they can't do a fight and just log on every raid night to have fun wiping at the same spot over and over for days. The nicer members start making excuses and ghost you and the more straight forward ones just leave.

[Lunaxia]

That is what raiding is. Savage is about being as efficient as possible...

There's some pretty strong irony here when you accuse me of basing my view point off "being mad at people who have offended me" when your post reads like the result of a bit of a chip on your shoulder over some past arguments that have embittered you against other players to the degree you struggle comprehending anyone else's perspective outside of your own. And with how well you deal with criticism, I can't help but feel like the cause for these unfortunate experiences might stem in part from your own issues and how you approach things rather than placing the blame squarely at other people's door.

You did shrug them off, and your inability to accept perhaps there are factors you didn't take into account and obsession with being unconditionally right is the only reason for this completely fruitless discussion. For the record, you might want to take a closer look at your own attitude if statics/ raiding has been so fraught with problems for you, therein might lie your answer.

[Celine_Aurora]

Completely disagree with you here. Beating a dummy that represents the DPS check for the fight you are up against is an empowering feeling, and it brings a sense of peace and excitement knowing you just proved you can do it to yourself.

The worst thing my old static could have done to "empower" me for my first Savage experience was telling me to practice on the P5S dummy before our first raid. I killed it handily because of course, went to raid with them feeling like I had already surpassed their expectations and got brutally beat down for three hours that made me so miserable I swore off the game entirely for a dozen days.

If they asked me to spend that time to start practicing the fight in PF and try to catch with them up a little and get an idea of what raiding actually is in this game, I might not have felt like my only recourse was to leave them.

Personally thois convinced me that as a first timer, these guys in the OP should not worry about testing their dps before having some decent prog down for the first fight, or at least do it concurrently. After all, dps only matters if you are trying to get a kill, yeah? And your rotation is relatively easy to fix when needed, compared to learning dances.

Edited to add: Also how good you can keep your rotation up on a stationary target ends up being almost meaningless the first time you're trying that during a fight doing mechs.

[Jeeqbit]

The worst thing my old static could have done to "empower" me for my first Savage experience was telling me to practice on the P5S dummy before our first raid. I killed it handily because of course, went to raid with them feeling like I had already surpassed their expectations and got brutally beat down for three hours that made me so miserable I swore off the game entirely for a dozen days.

Personally, I test against the fourth floor dummy instead (such as P8S). By the time I'm that far my gear will probably be better anyway, but I do it anyway.

Also how good you can keep your rotation up on a stationary target ends up being almost meaningless the first time you're trying that during a fight doing mechs.

While true, how can you do your rotation correctly in a fight if you can't even do it while stationary? How can you beat the fight if you do the rotation so poorly that the dummy is at half health when the time runs out?

Rotations are not that hard but it's a simple check for a new player at least to see if they are doing something extremely wrong.

[Celine_Aurora]

While true, how can you do your rotation correctly in a fight if you can't even do it while stationary? How can you beat the fight if you do the rotation so poorly that the dummy is at half health when the time runs out?

That would tie in to what I said about dps only being important when killing. Sure everyone should constantly test their rotation while progging too - gotta learn how to keep it up with mechs after all - but rotational mistakes that would you cost the kill aren't actually relevant until you have progged enough to see the kill.

I'm not saying testing on the dummy is completely useless, i'm saying that it should be a secondary focus to learning what the fight specifically asks of a player.