Ok asking for advice

[Ath192]

I mean... there's good advice here and elsewhere in the thread, but OP specified most of the players are new to raiding and I can't help but think this would suck a lot of the fun out of the whole experience for them as sprouts starting on the raid scene, not to mention potentially intimidate or overwhelm them. He also said they are friends, so I doubt advising him to treat the whole deal like a business transaction and view members as disposable commodities is what he's looking for.

We all have our own preferences for playing, of course, and what we're hoping to get out of it, but some of it seems kind of cold, and even as a more experienced player it sounds like a good way to make Savage a bit of a miserable experience. Not everyone is out purely for the drops; some people actually want to have a good time with friends as well.

Yes, I was very cold and objective. And I get the emotional appeal you are going for. This develops organically, or doesn't, based on each individual group and their dynamics/how they treat each other. I can't advise on that because that's up to them and how they interact. He asked for advice on raiding with a static and I gave him how to break down the math of raiding and objective metrics to test their mettle and commitment to the cause.

I can't tell you how to have fun, but I can tell you how you may increase your chances of succeeding. If I just told him to have fun and be happy that wouldn't be much help would it? But yes, I hope they do have fun and are happy.

A lot of people find succeeding fun and rewarding. And to counter your point I've known people that thought they were friends and then their static can't clear and they start hating each other and never talk again. That sounds pretty miserable as well doesn't it? So all we can do is hope and give people tools so they have an easier time in their goals.

[Mcg55ss]

I mean... there's good advice here and elsewhere in the thread, but OP specified most of the players are new to raiding and I can't help but think this would suck a lot of the fun out of the whole experience for them as sprouts starting on the raid scene, not to mention potentially intimidate or overwhelm them. He also said they are friends, so I doubt advising him to treat the whole deal like a business transaction and view members as disposable commodities is what he's looking for.

We all have our own preferences for playing, of course, and what we're hoping to get out of it, but some of it seems kind of cold, and even as a more experienced player it sounds like a good way to make Savage a bit of a miserable experience. Not everyone is out purely for the drops; some people actually want to have a good time with friends as well.

It may come off as cold but I did ask for advice and any bit of info I can get helps, to some people raiding is just a transaction, they put in time they expect gear in the end and that's all they care about. Whike atm I don't think anybody in our group cares about the gear most of us just want to do it for the experience and do it together because we know even if we fail we can pick on each other laugh at our mistakes and work on improving. I'm more asking for advice that stuff I don't know that would help us and prevent failing like making sure everybody understands our goals which I talked about to them but I had like made it official about the training dummy DPS check which I had no idea existed in this game and a few other things that I've learned on the way (like how FF player is weary of FC raid teams) but again I'm just as green as everybody else going I'm just the ex-military guy that used to lead people in raids in WoW and the one who stepped up so I ended up leading this lol. I'm not taking anybody's information on how I should run people because I know how to manage people I've done it many times in game and in real life scenarios from dealing with drama to dealing with how people handle stuff like criticism, however anything that can help me teach them more about what they need to be prepared for in raids getting a different person's perspective on what I should do could also help me be a better leader to my group, because most people talking are probably talking from what they've experienced in past or what they wish they would have known or done in their group before. Knowledge is the key to victory in everything so I post this to gather the community's knowledge because it is far greater than mine in this aspect and having so many diverse people chime in from hardcore raiding and ultimates like Dixie to more average I can better equip my people for success. Take everything in a positive light

[Jeeqbit]

FC 'statics' are rarely a good idea. Things get heated, feelings get hurt, people fall out.

Often true of statics generally. Especially if your goals don't align and need to part ways, or progression speeds are significantly different. In this case it would require both sides to be able to do all this respectfully and with great patience, and some people have that, but others don't.

Setup Clear Expectations from the get-go
The purpose of the Static is x and your Goal is x.

This is very important as well. If some of your static want to prog "for fun" and "the social interaction" and not necessarily to clear, and others want "the loot", and others want to do speedkills, and others want to do it blind, and others want to do it with a guide, and others want to do it within a certain timeframe (beating them all within a certain amount of weeks), then the goals might not align and that doesn't go well.

I came from WoW and 90% of your raid teams are in guild

Our "guilds" are restricted to a single world and restricting raider recruitment to a single world is unnecessary. Cross-world linkshells and discord servers have taken over in that area, leaving FCs for casual or social content a lot of the time. Raid teams here are not that large, except for BA and DRS, and we have cross-world discords for that too.

Also starting in ex might be great since none of us have raided savage so might get us used to mechanics

Extreme is easier to get into and to clear. They can be really hard for newer players but they are more recoverable and there are guides for these as well. It's worth following guides at least at the moment while you're all new. If you can clear an extreme you can most likely clear the first two raid floors of a tier which are usually relatively easy as well. The final two are what normally wall people.

There's a practice dummy with a DPS check??

You should be able to beat it in the latest pentamelded crafted gear (or come close). You can use high quality food and HQ Grade 7 Tinctures (they will probably be Grade 8 in 2 weeks). Tinctures boost the main stat for 30 seconds, so you use them together during burst windows when all attack buffs are ready. Strength is for tanks and melee DPS (except Ninja), Intelligence magic DPS, Mind healers and Dexterity ranged physical (Bard, Machinist and Dancer) and Ninjas.

to some people raiding is just a transaction, they put in time they expect gear in the end and that's all they care about.

It doesn't have to be completely a transaction. You can be friends and do other content and that is even healthy. Where the transaction comes in is that you are all respecting eachother's time, putting in the appropriate and agreed effort and if you need to stop raiding together because of goals not aligning, you each take a deep breath and not be hurt by it and just understand that each side is doing what they need to do, to achieve their goals.

[Lunaxia]

Yes, I was very cold and objective. And I get the...

I think those people (or those they fought with) have more problems either with themselves or those friendships than they're aware of if Savage is enough to tear them apart, but I'm aware this is an MMO we're talking about here.

Like I said, there's certainly good advice from a practical perspective, and input from experienced raiders can be invaluable. But recalling my early experiences, and having also been in OP's position as a leader of a group of first-timers on a few occasions who were incredibly reluctant to try because they didn't believe they were inherently good enough and were wary of encountering similarly cut-throat attitudes, I think it's important to remember the human element here and that when you are raiding you are dealing with people, not a composite of numbers on a screen. The sad thing is they were actually really interested in Savage, but saw it as the domain of some hardcore, super-player collective and were convinced they had no place there due to the sense of gatekeeping surrounding it with obsessions over logs and achievements and the like. And again, some people do play it and get a sense of satisfaction from that perspective, and that's fine - but that's not what it's all about, and certainly not for everybody who plays. I just wanted to reinforce that, for those who perhaps weren't aware.

It may come off as cold but I did ask for advice.

I'm glad you've been able to find some useful information, and that you can take what you personally need from it and apply it to your own situation as needs be. I know other people in your position can find it a bit daunting and wanted to add in such approaches to Savage are not universal, and it's more accessible than people sometimes realise and more than capable of being a source of fun challenges for groups to enjoy, since that can often be forgotten about amidst all the hubbub about rotations and numbers. I hope it works out for you.

[Mcg55ss]

I'm glad you've been able to find some useful information, and that you can take what you personally need from it and apply it to your own situation as needs be. I know other people in your position can find it a bit daunting and wanted to add in such approaches to Savage are not universal, and it's more accessible than people sometimes realise and more than capable of being a source of fun challenges for groups to enjoy, since that can often be forgotten about amidst all the hubbub about rotations and numbers. I hope it works out for you.

It's ok I try to find good in everything if I can LoL. I hope it will work out too, I know it will be a lot of work from everyone's side not just mine but here's to hoping we can pull it together and accomplish our goals.

[Mcg55ss]

I just want to say thank you everybody for all your help, I will take several pieces of what I learned today up for consideration and bring up several other points in my groups discord. If anybody else leaves me anything else to help guide me tonight thank you but I won't check and respond to it till I get to work tomorrow hope you all have a good day.

[Myrany]

This is going to be the worst decision or I'll get some helpful info, basically the thing is apparently I'm starting a static within my free company. Right now we've got 5 that are 100% on board (2 of those 5 are 90 but still finishing endwalker) 1 iffy (she thinks she will bring everyone down and make people mad... basically lacks confidence). So potentially 6 people wanting to raid that I'm leading but here's the thing I have like 2 hours raid experience in this game (p5s kill). Everyone is new to raiding in this game (me and healer have long time WoW experience but nothing here except alliance raids) so far obviously I got to fill last few spots but again never raided really in this game so I'm sure 90% of my time will be dead but yea any tips or advice would be useful.

Keep your sense of humor. This could be a really great shared struggle helping to form a cohesive group in the long run if everyone can learn to laugh at their mistakes.

[Ath192]

I think those people (or those they fought with) have more problems either with themselves or those friendships than they're aware of if Savage is enough to tear them apart, but I'm aware this is an MMO we're talking about here.

Like I said, there's certainly good advice from a practical perspective, and input from experienced raiders can be invaluable. But recalling my early experiences, and having also been in OP's position as a leader of a group of first-timers on a few occasions who were incredibly reluctant to try because they didn't believe they were inherently good enough and were wary of encountering similarly cut-throat attitudes, I think it's important to remember the human element here and that when you are raiding you are dealing with people, not a composite of numbers on a screen. The sad thing is they were actually really interested in Savage, but saw it as the domain of some hardcore, super-player collective and were convinced they had no place there due to the sense of gatekeeping surrounding it with obsessions over logs and achievements and the like. And again, some people do play it and get a sense of satisfaction from that perspective, and that's fine - but that's not what it's all about, and certainly not for everybody who plays. I just wanted to reinforce that, for those who perhaps weren't aware.

You highlight my post on what's convenient for you. For one I don't like being conflated with people who gatekeep raiding, that's not acceptable to me especially when I'm trying to help out. I would thank you not to associate me with those people when you quote me like the example is somehow related.

For another, if you knew people who were reluctant to try raiding I don't know why you as the leader were pushing them to do something they were reluctant to do to begin with. People don't have to raid if they aren't comfortable with it. And for someone who talks about the human element you've really done a stellar job at dehumanizing me like I'm this robot.

Your post rubs me the wrong way and I feel its hypocritical to take aim at someone who's trying to help and talk about empathy at the same time. Maybe if you are going to be considerate, be considerate of everyone in the conversation. I think you should know that because what you've said here really does bother me when you quote me and go railing against people who seem to have offended you in the past. I felt like I had to say something about this.

[Lunaxia]

You highlight my post...

Far from it, I've already said there's plenty of good practical advice there. But when your first thought with a bunch of new players who are friends looking to try Savage is to immediately get them on the dummy for DPS checks - which feels like a quick way to foster self-doubt and kill off enthusiasm - and advising OP in the event of "drop offs" I feel like you've already forgotten what actually matters to some people. Likewise, what you consider saving yourself a "waste of time" could still be a worthwhile and enjoyable experience for others even if it doesn't play out the way they hoped. It does come off as cold and unnecessarily procedural to me, regardless of whether that offends you or not, and reminiscent of the attitudes I'm talking about here.

You've also managed to miss where I said they were very interested in Savage and wanted to try, after having grown accustomed to casual endgame - but had adopted the myth you have to be a certain type of player to be able to even attempt it and were nervous about encountering backlash for not immediately meeting certain standards. It takes time to adjust, and easing them into it and enjoying the fights rather than scaring them off with DPS numbers was crucial to breaking through it.

I've been doing Savage long enough to know that it's unfortunately common for raiders to fail to realise approaches they consider effective or practical can come across as callous and potentially hurtful, especially if they've been playing a while. It's a strategy designed for efficiency, but the cynicism (which anyone who has been raiding for any length of time can be prone to) that arises from it can blind you to such obvious facts as this is a game you are playing with others, and that was all I wanted to say. I can't help but feel I've touched a nerve here, and when you phrase it as "railing off against people who seem to have offended me" for pointing out the impact such views can have on the other side of the screen, it doesn't really convince me any of what I've said here is unwarranted.

[Ath192]

Far from it, I've already said there's plenty of good practical advice there. But when your first thought with a bunch of new players who are friends looking to try Savage is to immediately get them on the dummy for DPS checks - which feels like a quick way to foster self-doubt and kill off enthusiasm

...

I can't help but feel I've touched a nerve here, and when you phrase it as "railing off against people who seem to have offended me" for pointing out the impact such views can have on the other side of the screen, it doesn't really convince me any of what I've said here is unwarranted.

Completely disagree with you here. Beating a dummy that represents the DPS check for the fight you are up against is an empowering feeling, and it brings a sense of peace and excitement knowing you just proved you can do it to yourself. Your entire premise is something completely intangible and circumstantial because some people prefer to be coddled and others prefer information to be handed to them straight up without embellishment. Feelings matter, I assure you more feelings are hurt when people don't know if they are the problem or not than when they know they are well prepared and practiced.

Your perspective on my phrasing bespeaks to your own cynicism and assumptions of my post. Since much of a dialogue can also change depending on a persons tone and inflection you have no idea if I was doing so with a kind tone or a curt one, and yet you chose to assume. In my mind, it was helpful but to the point. You turned something that was supposed to be positive into a negative, not because anyone asked you to, but because you chose to, and wanted to.

The biggest reason I take issue with it is because that attitude has turned PF into a toxic cesspool. Maybe someone messes up and another just objectively says what went wrong, because that is what the group needs to figure out how to succeed on the next pull, and yet this is somehow unacceptable because people will get offended. So next time, the players instead of trying to collaborate and work and actually speaking about what went wrong just drop off without saying anything and the party disbands, which leads to a lot of frustration. Instead of chastising people for presenting information in a clear and concise manner newer raiders should be encouraged to take responsibility and not take things personally since they are working to raid together, and that requires communication. Not doing so and dancing around the subject makes more enemies than friends I assure you.

To quote your first paragraph "what you consider saving yourself a "waste of time" could still be a worthwhile and enjoyable experience for others even if it doesn't play out the way they hoped" the key understanding here is that they hope to succeed, and thus they will need objective knowledge in order to do so.

Nobody is going to come out happier having failed a raid tier than having beat it.