Ok asking for advice

[Ath192]

won't necessarily respond well to a standardised, hyper-efficient approach, because not everyone is the same - a concept you seem to be struggling with. You're actually outing yourself as the kind of player you flat out refute to be by calling taking individual differences into consideration "coddling" and the weirdly defensive tone you're taking to the point you can't even acknowledge basic fact.

That is what raiding is. Savage is about being as efficient as possible to get the kill, now if you just want to go in there for laughs and kicks by all means do so. But you will have to be efficient to get the kill. This is just fact. Based on who are still friends and who still talk to each other in my circles I can tell you it was the ones who respected each other's time enough to put in effort and prepare for the fight. I like the subtle attack like you know how I behave in a raid setting. At the end of the day I do prefer to tackle fights with friends who want to put the effort forward to know what they are doing and carry their weight instead of the ones that think the boss will die from the power of friendship. The latter are usually the ones others have to carry. It breeds resentment by the way.

No, I'm basing what I've said on what you've written and how it comes across, and apparently you cannot accept a contrary point of view. OP has already stated he found the information helpful anyway despite that, so why are you so up in arms about it?

You are right. He did choose to recommend the dummies and start with an EX. Maybe I can't or can accept a contrary point of view but I do get invested in a topic when I'm passionate about helping people succeed. I don't believe in shielding people from the truth. They will encounter bad attitudes in the PF, their members WILL give up and leave if they can't get any kills. They may be mature enough to stay friends but very few people stick around to carry others who don't bother to put the effort in after a while. This is just the reality of it.

Ah, of course the problem with PF lies with new raiders for not taking "objective, clear and concise" advice and "not taking things personally", and absolutely nothing to do with raiders themselves, who are of course never rude, hostile, condescending, off-putting or completely unaware of how they actually sound to other people. It's those gosh darned newbies and their obsession with being treated with basic patience, consideration and respect coddled! It's not as if Savage raiders have a reputation for that sort of thing or anything, my, no.

I wasn't talking about those people, but they do exist, and they will run into them. If they can't handle it they may not want to PF.

Actually, OP has said himself none of them particularly care about gear and that they just want to do it for the experience and having fun together - as I pointed out is often the case. Of course it's a given that beating it would be nice, but your original post shrugged off basic considerations that are important to a lot of people, such as it is here, like the possibility he doesn't want anyone dropping out or that failure through keeping that in mind wouldn't actually be viewed as wasting his time, and that's what I've been saying all along. Fortunately OP is aware of what he wants and can take the relevant advice he's looking for, but I felt it to prudent to say in the event that might not be so. Is the fact some people really aren't that bothered about loot and clears over just being with friends such a foreign concept to you?

It didn't shrug them off. YOU shrugged them off for me I never said I didn't care about basic considerations. They are basic enough for most people to be aware of them. Nobody wants people dropping off, but it happens. You can fail a few times but as soon as other people feel they are walled they are feeling like they are wasting their time. I don't know of any static that knows they can't do a fight and just log on every raid night to have fun wiping at the same spot over and over for days. The nicer members start making excuses and ghost you and the more straight forward ones just leave.