Why do people avoid getting better at the game?

[Gemina]

Having a third DPS is the EXACT purpose of this, if you do not require a healer you bring another DPS.

But sure, jump over to Materia with your level 90 healer and lets do this.

Well, it would seem DC travel is not possible for me outside NA DCs, and I cannot visit Materia, nor you Aether. What I will do is at least provide the dungeons I planned on going into. I also never planned to make this impossible. Only difficult to obtain the clear without heals.

ARR - Wanderer's Palace HM: The last boss uses doom that can only be cleansed by healing to full. The effect can be avoided if not looking at the boss when he casts the ability.
HW - The Vault: Charibert simply requires heals as his auto attack damage is constant on the tank throughout the fight. Probably still possible as WAR since you do have Equilibrium and Raw Intuition, plus Invuln going into this fight. I was really, really curious about this fight in particular.
SB - The Burn: Pretty much self-explanatory. Without heals, Rime Wreath spam, which is unavoidable will eventually kill the DPS jobs and the healer. Mist randomness can make dodging a little tricky. The tank might be able to sustain themselves, but will be rough taking the creature down once everyone else is dead.
ShB - Amaurot: Last boss is similar to Mist Dragon threat level.
EW - The Dead Ends: Need to avoid mechanics from first boss. If inflicted, not having Esuna will kill the player. Same can be said for any boss that uses a doom mechanic really. Skilled players won't have too much issue.

TBF, just this morning I was in DF for 90 dungeon and we 3 manned it when the healer D/C and never got the healer replaced. WAR absolutely does not need a healer in any of the 90 EW dungeons and can go 1 tank / 3 DPS pretty easily. This isn't a brag, just that any tank with a basic understanding of their toolkit can probably do without a healer if they were so inclined.

WAR healing is ridiculous, I'll back step a little bit and admit that for sure. They can even do heavy trash pulls without much assistance from the healer. However, putting skilled players together will always make things easier. That is a given. The thing is, you're run of the mill average PUG party is going to have wide range of player skill levels. Majority of groups are going to need a healer to fix mistakes, and that's the point I'm trying to get across. How much they are needed for dungeons is going to vary from group to group.

[R041]

...

Using ARR Hard and HW is cheating, they actually have status effects. I thought the challenge was to do SB - EW lol

Also because tank kits are just way too juicy now.

It's funny, because I gave that challenge a few pages ago. Go do Wanderer's Palace Hard as a normal group, sync. And just tell me if it's fun.

[Silver-Strider]

Using ARR Hard and HW is cheating, they actually have status effects. I thought the challenge was to do SB - EW lol

Also because tank kits are just way too juicy now.

It's funny, because I gave that challenge a few pages ago. Go do Wanderer's Palace Hard as a normal group, sync. And just tell me if it's fun.

Just use BLU, you'll be fine.
The goal is to only Tank those Dungeons without the Healer Healing and if they're going to go outside the scope of the argument in bad faith by suggesting dungeons that were not included in the original argument, I see no reason to not do the same in turn.

[Gemina]

Using ARR Hard and HW is cheating, they actually have status effects. I thought the challenge was to do SB - EW lol

Also because tank kits are just way too juicy now.

It's funny, because I gave that challenge a few pages ago. Go do Wanderer's Palace Hard as a normal group, sync. And just tell me if it's fun.

Funny coming from you, since you're the one who said dungeons get easier the higher we go. Now it's cheating for these dungeons to be used to determine how much healers are needed in them? Nearly all bosses use status effects, and I even pointed out doom mechanics that are used by bosses in EW. Certain mechanics such as Doom, and heavy bleeds will always require a healer to save you if you fail them. WAR healing is one of the reasons why I said I will choose the dungeon, but I gave examples of ShB and EW dungeons regardless of that. A WAR tank isn't always going to be in the group.

Also whether or not a dungeon is fun is irrelevant here. But since you brought it up Wanderer's Palace HM is actually one of the more interesting and fun dungeons to run in ARR. Big pulls are possible there, the coffers drop decently priced mats on the MB and require a less linear path to get them, and the bosses aren't all that bad either.

[R041]

Funny coming from you, since you're the one who said dungeons get easier the higher we go. Now it's cheating for these dungeons to be used to determine how much healers are needed in them? Nearly all bosses use status effects, and I even pointed out doom mechanics that are used by bosses in EW. Certain mechanics such as Doom, and heavy bleeds will always require a healer to save you if you fail them. WAR healing is one of the reasons why I said I will choose the dungeon, but I gave examples of ShB and EW dungeons regardless of that. A WAR tank isn't always going to be in the group.

Also whether or not a dungeon is fun is irrelevant here. But since you brought it up Wanderer's Palace HM is actually one of the more interesting and fun dungeons to run in ARR. Big pulls are possible there, the coffers drop decently priced mats on the MB and require a less linear path to get them, and the bosses aren't all that bad either.

That was the point. To find a fun and dynamic dungeon. Which is why I gave Wanderer's Palace as an example to show that dungeons can actually be engaging. Just not many ShB-EW are unfortunately.

And yeah, running ARR-HW as tank without a healer is harder than SB-EW. I don't know where the contradiction is? It's because we know that. So the challenge is to run tank without a healer for Stormblood+. (The joke is that it isn't)

I feel like there was supposed to be some kinda gotcha that flew over my head.

Makeing the content easier wasnt the point..rather it was to point out..
that somebody may play bad... bc they are hold back by their disability...
and that people should be less jugmental towards others..
(everyone can get where want - if given enough time and practice (on most content))

That's fair, and I believe Yoshi needs to provide more accessibility opportunities for those people. But I also believe they can provide engaging, threatening gameplay, while also providing accessibility options. Without diminishing the gameplay overall. Like XVI is doing with the story mode.

[Ath192]

Well....

ARR - Wanderer's Palace HM: The last boss uses doom that can only be cleansed by healing to full. The effect can be avoided if not looking at the boss when he casts the ability.
HW - The Vault: Charibert simply requires heals as his auto attack damage is constant on the tank throughout the fight. Probably still possible as WAR since you do have Equilibrium and Raw Intuition, plus Invuln going into this fight. I was really, really curious about this fight in particular.
SB - The Burn: Pretty much self-explanatory. Without heals, Rime Wreath spam, which is unavoidable will eventually kill the DPS jobs and the healer. Mist randomness can make dodging a little tricky. The tank might be able to sustain themselves, but will be rough taking the creature down once everyone else is dead.
ShB - Amaurot: Last boss is similar to Mist Dragon threat level.
EW - The Dead Ends: Need to avoid mechanics from first boss. If inflicted, not having Esuna will kill the player. Same can be said for any boss that uses a doom mechanic really. Skilled players won't have too much issue.


WAR healing is ridiculous, I'll back step a little bit and admit that for sure. They can even do heavy trash pulls without much assistance from the healer..

Here you go I synced and solo'd The Burn as WAR. Even the darling of SB dungeon difficulty is a former shadow of itself.

Full disclosure I wiped 3 times:
1. A careless raw intuition mistake on a double trash mob pull
2. And 2 times to figuring out how the hell to survive the add phase during the final boss because I couldn't meet the DPS check as solo WAR. Something that wouldn't have happened if I had even one more person doing something.

What ends up happening is you end up encased in ice and the boss starts casting a TB on you. Kind of cruel.

If this is soloable I'm sure every dungeon past this is too unless there's some incredibly cheap mechanic that forces multiple people being alive.

I just wished the games core design was more fun than this. We always have to go looking for scraps of difficulty here and there. And I don't want savage or Extreme level difficulty everywhere either. Just midcore is fine. If everything was around the difficulty level of original CLL I would be happy.

I even made several mistakes too, I didn't have to be perfect. For example during the first boss I had to reply to an email so I just end up standing in AOE's by accident and in the second boss I got rolled into the firewall for not paying attention to the carts.

Here is the video of the clear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIgp...Aries%27Corner

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Here you go I synced and solo'd The Burn as WAR. Even the darling of SB dungeon difficulty is a former shadow of itself.

Full disclosure I wiped 3 times:
1. A careless raw intuition mistake on a double trash mob pull
2. And 2 times to figuring out how the hell to survive the add phase during the final boss because I couldn't meet the DPS check as solo WAR. Something that wouldn't have happened if I had even one more person doing something.

What ends up happening is you end up encased in ice and the boss starts casting a TB on you. Kind of cruel.

If this is soloable I'm sure every dungeon past this is too unless there's some incredibly cheap mechanic that forces multiple people being alive.

I just wished the games core design was more fun than this. We always have to go looking for scraps of difficulty here and there. And I don't want savage or Extreme level difficulty everywhere either. Just midcore is fine. If everything was around the difficulty level of original CLL I would be happy.

I even made several mistakes too, I didn't have to be perfect. For example during the first boss I had to reply to an email so I just end up standing in AOE's by accident and in the second boss I got rolled into the firewall for not paying attention to the carts.

Here is the video of the clear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIgp...Aries%27Corner

Sounds more like a need to nerf the crap out of tank heals over anything really.



Even during arr I solod some stuff on PLD. First and 2nd bosses of halatali hm for instance.



Yes, healing and tanking needs to be adjusted. I hate how tanks are just dps with high HP and defense in this game. At least in arr there was more interaction with your defensive skills in raids..



I miss those days and it's why I just play a dps now, at least in raids. I was a tank main (PLD) from ARR launch until Stormblood. After that it's just been dps for the most part.

[Ath192]

Sounds more like a need to nerf the crap out of tank heals over anything really.



Even during arr I solod some stuff on PLD. First and 2nd bosses of halatali hm for instance.



Yes, healing and tanking needs to be adjusted. I hate how tanks are just dps with high HP and defense in this game. At least in arr there was more interaction with your defensive skills in raids..



I miss those days and it's why I just play a dps now, at least in raids. I was a tank main (PLD) from ARR launch until Stormblood. After that it's just been dps for the most part.

That's the mentality as to why this game is in the hole. Everyone thinks "Nerf" to me it sounds like they need to buff the difficulty of things so people have fun. If they didn't nerf things to the ground this wouldn't be possible.

I agree with you though, mostly. I just hate nerfs as a solution.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

That's the mentality as to why this game is in the hole. Everyone thinks "Nerf" to me it sounds like they need to buff the difficulty of things so people have fun. If they didn't nerf things to the ground this wouldn't be possible.

I agree with you though, mostly. I just hate nerfs as a solution.

I also hate nerfs, but in this case, to warrant a healer, stuff would have to hit so much harder that a tank couldn't keep itself alive with its own heals. Which kind of defeats the purpose of them having heals in the first place. So just remove/nerf the heals helps solve a lot of that problem. It doesn't fix healing, which needs other things. Esuna should matter again. We used to have targeted damage going out to randoms on top of raidwides and tank busters. Tank busters used to be a lot harder to cheese.



We really just need a rework when it comes to encounter design, more so than job design, in some cases. But there's still other issues.

[Ath192]

I also hate nerfs, but in this case, to warrant a healer, stuff would have to hit so much harder that a tank couldn't keep itself alive with its own heals. Which kind of defeats the purpose of them having heals in the first place. So just remove/nerf the heals helps solve a lot of that problem. It doesn't fix healing, which needs other things. Esuna should matter again. We used to have targeted damage going out to randoms on top of raidwides and tank busters. Tank busters used to be a lot harder to cheese.

We really just need a rework when it comes to encounter design, more so than job design, in some cases. But there's still other issues.

If they are going to take heals out they would have to add other damage buttons or some other complexity because otherwise you are stuck with 1,2,3. I still see a purpose as heals are supposed to prolong or delay how often a heal is necessary but encounters themselves should be the one to get damage buffs and not the player characters that should get nerfs.

I do support things hitting so much harder. That's our one difference.

In terms of encounter design yeah things should be much more random than scripted and healers especially need reasons to use more of their kit. Sleep should matter as well. MP management needs to be a bit tougher. Dungeons need more patterns to them not just long hallways.

The thing is dungeons shouldnt be a roulette chore. They are constrained in design by this. Since people have to grind them for their daily crap they can't be anything else then braindead or they get shunned. The duty roulette and its daily use to grind stuff out is what's killing any creativity in this game.

They say this game avoids grinds but it's a lie. The entire game turned into a giant grind because part of the game can't be grindy if ALL of it is grindy xD.

Does anyone not see that all they do is grind the same roulette every day? how is this different than other MMO's if the design of each roulette is more or less the same. It's the biggest lie I swear.