Second Wind is a terrible ability and either needs redesigned or outright removed.

[Ransu]

its crazy how resistant to change people are. for Second Wind of all things.

where was this energy when the devs took Bard, Scholar and Astrologian behind the shed and lobotomised them with a shotgun in Shadowbringers?

Because it doesn't need to be changed... Second Wind is perfectly fine the way it is.

[Tlachtga]

Because it doesn't need to be changed... Second Wind is perfectly fine the way it is.

its a 8k heal on a 2min cd. you use it when you can, sure but its pretty worthless in 99% of cases.

but let's pretend its nearly as useful as people are saying it is. its still not "perfectly fine" in the case of BRD and MCH.

it needs to either get buffed, Phys Ranged need to get the m.def of casters, Phys Ranged need to get Bloodbath, or BRD/MCH get an extra personal cd like all the melees and DNC do.

[Raven2014]

its a 8k heal on a 2min cd. you use it when you can, sure but its pretty worthless in 99% of cases.

Define these 99% of cases? Guess what, SW is meant to be useful for that exact 1% situation, so looks like it worked as intend.

but let's pretend its nearly as useful as people are saying it is.

No need to pretend.

it needs to either get buffed, Phys Ranged need to get the m.def of casters, Phys Ranged need to get Bloodbath, or BRD/MCH get an extra personal cd like all the melees and DNC do.

Why we at it, please give every other DPS a personal shield like Radiant Aegis or Manaward, MCH and BRD should also get En Advant.

Like holy crap, I swear some people just obssessive about every class must have exactly the same thing or something.

[Tlachtga]

Define these 99% of cases? Guess what, SW is meant to be useful for that exact 1% situation, so looks like it worked as intend.

i'll give you a case where it wasn't enough. P8S. Illusory Creation, early on when we were still working out our mit plan. We got In + Protean. WHM forgot Temperance.

Our MNK popped Second Wind, Riddle of Earth and Bloodbath. He lived.
Our NIN popped Second Wind, Shadeshift and Bloodbath. He lived.
Our SMN popped Radiant Aegis. He lived.
Our BRD popped Second Wind and died to the Protean by about 2k dmg.

works as intended, if the goal was to make your BRD want to switch to DNC for not only an easier time, but to be arguably more impactful to the raid, and less punishing upon death.

Why we at it, please give every other DPS a personal shield like Radiant Aegis or Manaward, MCH and BRD should also get En Advant.

well NIN and RPR both have Shadeshift and Arcane Crest respectively, so i guess we're getting there.

BRD already has Repelling Shot. and yes, MCH absolutely should get a movement skill.

Like holy crap, I swear some people just obssessive about every class must have exactly the same thing or something.

the devs are the ones who went out of their way to homogenise the f out of the jobs. i'm suggesting a change to an inconsistency.

there's been nothing decent against my suggestions too, other than "lol no" or "it'd be broken" i agree with the "it doesn't matter" ones, because SW is a posterchild for button bloat and should've been one of the first things gone.

How about no to all of that?

example of a response is literally "lol no"

it reminds me of way back in Stormblood when we were discussing how crappy DRK's Shadow Wall was in comparison to WAR's Vengeance.

literally the same responses. "it does its job", "doesn't need changed" "its perfect as it is" and the devs ended up changing it anyway. almost like it wasn't fine.

[Raven2014]

i'll give you a case where it wasn't enough. P8S. Illusory Creation, early on when we were still working out our mit plan. We got In + Protean. WHM forgot Temperance.

Isn't that the point?

This is due to both your group haven't figured out the mech, and your healer forget their mit. And ... this somehow is a game's issue because someone live and someone doesn't?

works as intended,

Indeed. Just to repeat what a lot people here have been saying: if oyu need SW to be more powerful than it is now, then there is a problem with your group, not with the content.

[Tlachtga]

Isn't that the point?

that in an emergency situation during early progression, BRD lacks personal cds that the other jobs have and would've lived in that case? yes that is my point.

This is due to both your group haven't figured out the mech, and your healer forget their mit. And ... this somehow is a game's issue because someone live and someone doesn't?

i'd say its the game's issue when two jobs within a role are missing a cd that the 3rd one has and this results in a death that otherwise wouldn't have happened.

Indeed. Just to repeat what a lot people here have been saying: if oyu need SW to be more powerful than it is now, then there is a problem with your group, not with the content.

seems to be a little bit of confusion here, i'm speaking generally about BRD/MCH sustain/m.def here, and piggybacked the thread to do so. i don't need Second Wind buffed for my group's progression.

i want BRD and MCH to have slightly better options to match the other dps though. whether its Bloodbath, Second Wind buff, another cd like Curing Waltz or they're just given caster m.def. i don't really care. but right now its inconsistent.

[Raven2014]

seems to be a little bit of confusion here, i'm speaking generally about BRD/MCH sustain/m.def here, and piggybacked the thread to do so. i don't need Second Wind buffed for my group's progression.

Well, that's your problem. Your first comment was asking about why people resisting to change when most people was talking about the OP change to SW. You piggy bag your actual argument after we already fire off our counterargument. This is like setting up a new target after the bullet already left the barrel. You should have start a thread asking for equal access, rather than piggyback a comment about someone asking change to something that people consider working as intended.

And even on your point, what you call inconsistent I just call it flavor. Survivability on each classes have never been the same, should never be the same. Like I said, if you start asking every roles to have the exact same thing, where the buck gonna stop? All healers should be given gap closer like SGE too then? Curing Waltz for everyone.


And you should care, your comment about "this is what SE already doing anyway" ... like so since they're doing something bad let make it worse? This is exactly why we got into this circle. People complaining about class being streamline and become homogeneous, yet every other request is "why class A have this and class B don't, that's not fair! Make them the same please!"



tl:dr version for the rest at the end.


Do you know why we keep calling it "emergency"? Because it's not a guarantee. Even for people who claim SW saved many run, most of us actually also recount when it's not enough. Someone screw up, you hit that button and ... "pray" that it's enough, and a lot of time it's just not. But that's "unreliability" is what make ability like SW (or other personal) an emergency used at player discreet, and not a "regular" part of the kit. Because not everyone have it, and/or because it doesn't guarantee a save even if you have it, that's why:

- No healer will skip a heal thinking "well the DPS can just SW themselves up".
- No DPS gonna purpose take an extra hit that can kill them because they can just SW up. (They may take a risk and still get hit, but that's different).

Now imagine a world where SW is given to everyone and also buffed like requested in this thread.

- Healer gonna start skipping heal under the assumption people can keep themselves up using SW.
- DPS gonna eat mechanic if it give them certain advantage if they have the assurance of SW will be enough to cover the damage.

I can already imagine this kind of chat become a norm. A DPS after dying to back to back AOE damage:

DPS: yo healer why you let me die to DMG, where my heal?
Healer: where is your second wind? You can just top yourself off for the 2nd hit there.
DPS: I already used it earlier to keep up time!
Healer: well, that sounds like a YOU problem to me.


Just like ... no. When something work reliably with equal access, it's no longer an "emergency", it's an expectation of the norm. You probably will also here something like this: "ok our mit plan for this will be reprisal first, feint second, and second wind the third hit, everyone cool with that?"


tl:dr:

- It's an emergency tool because you can not rely on it to save a run, just hope it can save a run.
- If you change SW to make it something people can rely on, then it's no longer an emergency button
- It'll just become another ability that people expected to plan and use regularly.

[Ransu]

its a 8k heal on a 2min cd. you use it when you can, sure but its pretty worthless in 99% of cases.

but let's pretend its nearly as useful as people are saying it is. its still not "perfectly fine" in the case of BRD and MCH.

it needs to either get buffed, Phys Ranged need to get the m.def of casters, Phys Ranged need to get Bloodbath, or BRD/MCH get an extra personal cd like all the melees and DNC do.

How about no to all of that?