Second Wind is a terrible ability and either needs redesigned or outright removed.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I'm not quite sure why you're pointing this out[...]

Forgive me @_@ for whatever reason I misinterpret your comment as "ranged physical have feint too" at the time I wrote that. The wonders of bedtime discussion...

Otherwise, I agree with your points.

[Raven2014]

i'll give you a case where it wasn't enough. P8S. Illusory Creation, early on when we were still working out our mit plan. We got In + Protean. WHM forgot Temperance.

Isn't that the point?

This is due to both your group haven't figured out the mech, and your healer forget their mit. And ... this somehow is a game's issue because someone live and someone doesn't?

works as intended,

Indeed. Just to repeat what a lot people here have been saying: if oyu need SW to be more powerful than it is now, then there is a problem with your group, not with the content.

[Tlachtga]

Isn't that the point?

that in an emergency situation during early progression, BRD lacks personal cds that the other jobs have and would've lived in that case? yes that is my point.

This is due to both your group haven't figured out the mech, and your healer forget their mit. And ... this somehow is a game's issue because someone live and someone doesn't?

i'd say its the game's issue when two jobs within a role are missing a cd that the 3rd one has and this results in a death that otherwise wouldn't have happened.

Indeed. Just to repeat what a lot people here have been saying: if oyu need SW to be more powerful than it is now, then there is a problem with your group, not with the content.

seems to be a little bit of confusion here, i'm speaking generally about BRD/MCH sustain/m.def here, and piggybacked the thread to do so. i don't need Second Wind buffed for my group's progression.

i want BRD and MCH to have slightly better options to match the other dps though. whether its Bloodbath, Second Wind buff, another cd like Curing Waltz or they're just given caster m.def. i don't really care. but right now its inconsistent.

[Raven2014]

seems to be a little bit of confusion here, i'm speaking generally about BRD/MCH sustain/m.def here, and piggybacked the thread to do so. i don't need Second Wind buffed for my group's progression.

Well, that's your problem. Your first comment was asking about why people resisting to change when most people was talking about the OP change to SW. You piggy bag your actual argument after we already fire off our counterargument. This is like setting up a new target after the bullet already left the barrel. You should have start a thread asking for equal access, rather than piggyback a comment about someone asking change to something that people consider working as intended.

And even on your point, what you call inconsistent I just call it flavor. Survivability on each classes have never been the same, should never be the same. Like I said, if you start asking every roles to have the exact same thing, where the buck gonna stop? All healers should be given gap closer like SGE too then? Curing Waltz for everyone.


And you should care, your comment about "this is what SE already doing anyway" ... like so since they're doing something bad let make it worse? This is exactly why we got into this circle. People complaining about class being streamline and become homogeneous, yet every other request is "why class A have this and class B don't, that's not fair! Make them the same please!"



tl:dr version for the rest at the end.


Do you know why we keep calling it "emergency"? Because it's not a guarantee. Even for people who claim SW saved many run, most of us actually also recount when it's not enough. Someone screw up, you hit that button and ... "pray" that it's enough, and a lot of time it's just not. But that's "unreliability" is what make ability like SW (or other personal) an emergency used at player discreet, and not a "regular" part of the kit. Because not everyone have it, and/or because it doesn't guarantee a save even if you have it, that's why:

- No healer will skip a heal thinking "well the DPS can just SW themselves up".
- No DPS gonna purpose take an extra hit that can kill them because they can just SW up. (They may take a risk and still get hit, but that's different).

Now imagine a world where SW is given to everyone and also buffed like requested in this thread.

- Healer gonna start skipping heal under the assumption people can keep themselves up using SW.
- DPS gonna eat mechanic if it give them certain advantage if they have the assurance of SW will be enough to cover the damage.

I can already imagine this kind of chat become a norm. A DPS after dying to back to back AOE damage:

DPS: yo healer why you let me die to DMG, where my heal?
Healer: where is your second wind? You can just top yourself off for the 2nd hit there.
DPS: I already used it earlier to keep up time!
Healer: well, that sounds like a YOU problem to me.


Just like ... no. When something work reliably with equal access, it's no longer an "emergency", it's an expectation of the norm. You probably will also here something like this: "ok our mit plan for this will be reprisal first, feint second, and second wind the third hit, everyone cool with that?"


tl:dr:

- It's an emergency tool because you can not rely on it to save a run, just hope it can save a run.
- If you change SW to make it something people can rely on, then it's no longer an emergency button
- It'll just become another ability that people expected to plan and use regularly.

[IkaraGreydancer]

I'll just say this. I question the skill of people wanting a buff to this action. I don't mean this in a mean way but if you aren't messing mechanics up you wouldn't need to rely on said panic button much.

Can we stop advocating for more handholding please? Can we leave somethings just as they are especially when they aren't broken?

[Deceptus]

I'll just say this. I question the skill of people wanting a buff to this action. I don't mean this in a mean way but if you aren't messing mechanics up you wouldn't need to rely on said panic button much.

Can we stop advocating for more handholding please? Can we leave somethings just as they are especially when they aren't broken?

If that's the case why don't we just remove all of the self heals (including broken tank healing) and let the healers do the healing?

Until then, we accept the design philosophy that roles have self heals and advocate that they should at least be decent and not be a level 70 potion equivalent at level 90.

[Ransu]

If that's the case why don't we just remove all of the self heals (including broken tank healing) and let the healers do the healing?

Until then, we accept the design philosophy that roles have self heals and advocate that they should at least be decent and not be a level 70 potion equivalent at level 90.

I'm perfectly fine with that idea. I've said earlier that mitigation is one thing, but self healing skills should be extremely limited and "emergency" style skills only for like when a healer goes down or something.

[IkaraGreydancer]

If that's the case why don't we just remove all of the self heals (including broken tank healing) and let the healers do the healing?

Until then, we accept the design philosophy that roles have self heals and advocate that they should at least be decent and not be a level 70 potion equivalent at level 90.

I gey this was suppose to be a "got ya" comment but I'm all for it!

But then you forget msq is a thing. How is Mch (for example) suppose to heal itself? Iirc Bard doesn't have self healing either. Plenty of classes don't.

We've had this skill for years and it's been working fine. When it doesn't save me I don't go "damn this skill sucks it needs more potency". I go "damn well I shouldn't have messed up".

[Ransu]

I gey this was suppose to be a "got ya" comment but I'm all for it!

But then you forget msq is a thing. How is Mch (for example) suppose to heal itself? Iirc Bard doesn't have self healing either. Plenty of classes don't.

We've had this skill for years and it's been working fine. When it doesn't save me I don't go "damn this skill sucks it needs more potency". I go "damn well I shouldn't have messed up".

I mean, most of the non-instanced stuff is faceroll and instanced fights the npc always heals you to full so its a non-issue imo for the msq.

[IkaraGreydancer]

I mean, most of the non-instanced stuff is faceroll and instanced fights the npc always heals you to full so its a non-issue imo for the msq.

What's considered face roll will differ depending on skill. And not every instance has npcs with you. Hell if you mess up enough npc healing won't cut it.

Doesn't really change my main point though