Second Wind is a terrible ability and either needs redesigned or outright removed.

[AnotherPerson]

Bloodbath shouldn't exist imo and second wind is fine the way it is.

I don't believe in the design idea of self sustainability for dps and tanks. You're taking away from the role of healers too much by doing that which is why small heals like second wind are fine and why the insane self healing warrior has is stupid. Mitigation is one thing, but self healing should be extremely limited.

They're already gave tanks ridiculous amounts of self-sustain, so it's not just the DPS taking the role of healers too much. They might as well give healers more DPS skills and then give ranged DPS another way to self-sustain, then call it a day. After all, it's not like healers will feel better to play in solo content and be told to go play DPS anyway. >.>

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

Second Wind is fine.

Now some of the Physical Ranged Role Actions do need to be tweaked for group or Raid content because lemme tell you... Leg Graze and Foot Graze are only useful in like... solo PotD.

[Tlachtga]

its crazy how resistant to change people are. for Second Wind of all things.

where was this energy when the devs took Bard, Scholar and Astrologian behind the shed and lobotomised them with a shotgun in Shadowbringers?

[Midareyukki]

its crazy how resistant to change people are. for Second Wind of all things.

where was this energy when the devs took Bard, Scholar and Astrologian behind the shed and lobotomised them with a shotgun in Shadowbringers?

There's a difference.

In this situation, people are merely suggesting a change, and people are resisting it before it reaches the devs.
In those situations you described, the devs just took those classes behind the shed, lobotomized them without concern or being properly informed and then just showed up like "damage is done, enjoy your oversimplified job".

On the first case, people can still prevent that. On the second, people had to deal with it and anyone who wasn't okay with it was just being "too negative™" and a nasty contrarian.

[Deceptus]

Second Wind is fine.

Now some of the Physical Ranged Role Actions do need to be tweaked for group or Raid content because lemme tell you... Leg Graze and Foot Graze are only useful in like... solo PotD.

In my perfect world abilities that didn't apply debuffs to mobs / bosses would do damage instead. Low Blow included.

There's a difference.

In this situation, people are merely suggesting a change, and people are resisting it before it reaches the devs.
In those situations you described, the devs just took those classes behind the shed, lobotomized them without concern or being properly informed and then just showed up like "damage is done, enjoy your oversimplified job".

On the first case, people can still prevent that. On the second, people had to deal with it and anyone who wasn't okay with it was just being "too negative™" and a nasty contrarian.

Except it didn't work exactly like that. Let's take SCH's ability Energy Drain for example:

Devs showed the ability being removed in the pre-patch, healers universally said this was a BAD idea because at the time SCH's mana regeneration was tied to Energy Drain not Aetherflow like it is now.

Devs refused to budge, Energy Drain was removed, lo and behold exactly what we said happened and the Devs were forced to give it back (not even mentioning SCH had no Aetherflow dump after the change so we just fired off useless heals).

Stuff exactly like that is why the devs stopped giving out detailed changed pre-patch notes.

But then they dropped bombshells and basically said "deal with it" which made the players even more angry because we felt our feedback was meaningless and job balance was terrible.

So then they had to backtrack AGAIN.

[Midareyukki]

Except it didn't work exactly like that. Let's take SCH's ability Energy Drain for example:

Devs showed the ability being removed in the pre-patch, healers universally said this was a BAD idea because at the time SCH's mana regeneration was tied to Energy Drain not Aetherflow like it is now.

Devs refused to budge, Energy Drain was removed, lo and behold exactly what we said happened and the Devs were forced to give it back (not even mentioning SCH had no Aetherflow dump after the change so we just fired off useless heals).

Stuff exactly like that is why the devs stopped giving out detailed changed pre-patch notes.

But then they dropped bombshells and basically said "deal with it" which made the players even more angry because we felt our feedback was meaningless and job balance was terrible.

So then they had to backtrack AGAIN.

It was also a mix of that and the fact that whenever they nerfed anything, people would start saying crap about it before it was even released. And on the SCH thing, it wasn't just the MP economy that went down the drain. It was also the fact that they didn't have any dump other than helas for their aetherflow stacks.

But that's the thing. What I said was an oversimplification. Overall, yeah, that IS how it worked. The devs tend to throw some random decision, DON'T take feedback, and then have the absolute gall of saying stupid crap like "Oh, we weren't expecting that reaction from our playerbase..."

Though... in some aspects, I can't blame them. The way people reacted to the removal of Kaiten all but validates their concerns.

But in comparison to what Tlachtga said, yeah, the player reaction is different. There will always be people against additions\reworks to the game. It's just that there's little point in fighting it when the devs implement stuff, because they rarely ever change stuff back. It took SCHs not playing the class at all for them to give them back Energy Drain and Miasma 2.

[Gullis]

Do we really need less reasons for healer to exist?

[Raven2014]

its crazy how resistant to change people are. for Second Wind of all things.

Do you say it to everyone who don't agree with any change you propose regardless of its merit?

Have you ever considered people resist some change because they're just ... uh ... bad change?

[Atelier-Bagur]

They're already gave tanks ridiculous amounts of self-sustain, so it's not just the DPS taking the role of healers too much. They might as well give healers more DPS skills and then give ranged DPS another way to self-sustain, then call it a day. After all, it's not like healers will feel better to play in solo content and be told to go play DPS anyway. >.>

No I rather them cut out a bunch of mitigation from both tanks and dps because its jeoperdizing the point the holy trinity roles.

With tanks mitigation makes sense but it really shouldnt be as abusive as it is where healers arent needed for survivability, so I would like for them to seriously nerf those abilities. DPS however should have practically no self-sustain, their best defense should be their best offense so skills like Second Wind and Bloodbath are perfect enough for that design as it isnt completely OP.

I tell you, if they heavily nerf tank mitigation, Im sure youll have a lot more healers satisfied with being useful using their hefty healing toolkits in all forms of content and we wouldnt be having this "boring healers" conversation.

[Midareyukki]

Do we really need less reasons for healer to exist?

Second Wind isn't what caused that question :P Isn't that right, WAR mains?