Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[FireMage]

You still say MCH should be at the bottom and job difficulty dictates balance, so no you clearly don't

Me saying those things is an indicator that I know how balance actual works actually. Try again

You idiots who thinks MMOs should have same balance as other competitive games like League needs to gtfo.
20 years of MMO and I've never seen people argue FOR "balance based on difficulty", only here in ffxiv, only recently, perhaps due to how every single popular online game has bronze-master tier ranking system.
Who the fuck are you even competing against?

I have heard multiple, good arguments as to why "balance based on difficulty bad", including how it would have a negative impact on the game and it's community.
I have not heard of a single good argument for this "balance based on difficulty good" side, other than like 3 people crying "but how else can i show off how elite i am?"

You haven't as none exist. RDM competes with the other DPS, MNK competes with the other DPS, EVERY DPS COMPETES WITH THE OTHER DPS. Not balancing on difficulty does nothing but punish those that excel at higher complexity Jobs

[CKNovel]

You haven't as none exist. RDM competes with the other DPS, MNK competes with the other DPS, EVERY DPS COMPETES WITH THE OTHER DPS. Not balancing on difficulty does nothing but punish those that excel at higher complexity Jobs

Factually wrong
Due to the role bonus, you will always have to pick at least 1 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged for the sake of efficiency.
You have 1 flex spot that will most likely be taken by a melee as they offer more value to the group.

Therefore:
Melees compete for 2 spots among melees jobs.
Casters compete for 1 spot among casters jobs.
Rangeds compete for 1 spot among ranged jobs.

If all DPS competes with all DPS, then we would have 4 melees meta.

I still refuse to debate with you but correcting your so called "facts" will remain my guilty pleasure.
While remaining polite and not being personal of course.

I suggest you try to understand why everyone here disagrees with your takes.

[AmiableApkallu]

Due to the role bonus, you will always have to pick at least 1 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged for the sake of efficiency.

That's true only if the roles are sufficiently close to each other in DPS.

If melees get sufficiently ahead of casters, for example, the melee advantage would overcome the 1% role bonus for bringing the caster, making it worthwhile to forgo the caster.

You need to balance within a role to ensure that no job gets locked out. You need to balance between the roles to ensure that no role gets locked out.

(I'm sure this has all been said before.)

[Urielparadox]

Factually wrong
Due to the role bonus, you will always have to pick at least 1 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged for the sake of efficiency.
You have 1 flex spot that will most likely be taken by a melee as they offer more value to the group.

Therefore:
Melees compete for 2 spots among melees jobs.
Casters compete for 1 spot among casters jobs.
Rangeds compete for 1 spot among ranged jobs.

If all DPS competes with all DPS, then we would have 4 melees meta.

I still refuse to debate with you but correcting your so called "facts" will remain my guilty pleasure.
While remaining polite and not being personal of course.

I suggest you try to understand why everyone here disagrees with your takes.

This is unfortunately at the current "balance" 100% factually incorrect currently. You can currently do 3x melee partys and do vastly more damage than having 1 caster in the party. That is the major current issue. While fire mage has a lot wrong, you are extremely incorrect on this.

Nope, see you're still strawmanning. The party bonus has nothing to do with the fact that DPS compete with one another. Have a nice day, hope you figure it out

Incorrect when jobs are properly balanced, the 1% party bonus for having a cater outweighs having 3 dps. this greatly impacts dps competing for each other. If only 1 casted does viable damage, then that caster will be the only one allowed in content over another physical.

Which is happening currently p6 and p7 both have no mages which is very common.

[CKNovel]

This is unfortunately at the current "balance" 100% factually incorrect currently. You can currently do 3x melee partys and do vastly more damage than having 1 caster in the party. That is the major current issue. While fire mage has a lot wrong, you are extremely incorrect on this.

Let's clear up two points:

My intend was to bring up and explain the purpose of party bonus.
The state of the current balance doesn't change the purpose of party bonus.
Least, let's not forget party bonus also brings vitality and mind, both increases the party survival.

I would like you to back up your sources
I know for sure that theorycraft happened to replace rangeds with melees, but I've never seen it in practice, let alone actual proof the 1% is not worth a caster/range.
Currently, the fastest kills with 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS always includes at least one of the 3 roles.
The only non-standard teams often includes a 5th DPS instead of a healer.

This is why I'm doubting your claims, would you kindly back-up your claim?
If you could also bring the theorycraft, I would be grateful!

You think dark knight is the hardest tank? yeah no "lots of buttons" and spamming 1, 2, 3 isn't hard, Paladin and Gunbreaker are generally considered more difficult.

I've played Dark Knight and Gunbreaker this expansion.
I can confirm that DRK and GNB aren't hard to play at a level good enough to claim ultimate and week 1 clears.

PLD is much more difficult to play on its offensive rotation but also on management of defensive cooldowns.

[Housinginneed]

I've played Dark Knight and Gunbreaker this expansion.
I can confirm that DRK and GNB aren't hard to play at a level good enough to claim ultimate and week 1 clears.

PLD is much more difficult to play on its offensive rotation but also on management of defensive cooldowns.

Agreed, this is also what Xeno has said on his recent video, he considers DRK braindead easy and paladin the hardest to optimize, which clearly shows once again, difficulty is subjective.

[Rilifane]

Agreed, this is also what Xeno has said on his recent video, he considers DRK braindead easy and paladin the hardest to optimize, which clearly shows once again, difficulty is subjective.

There are few things that can be considered objectively more difficult like a clownfiesta is objectively more difficult to heal than a smooth run where nobody eats anything.
But it all falls apart the moment someone tries to apply the concept of difficulty to a class as a whole. There are so different answers to what someone even considers difficult.
Amount of buttons? APM? Rigidness? Timers? Procs? Limited mobility? Constant APM? High APM burst/ low APM downtime?

I'm personally better at adjusting on the fly than rigidly sticking to something so any job that is rigid is more difficult for me by nature. I'm better at BLM than GNB even though many would consider the former more difficult, especially when optimizing. Healing the most chaotic clownfiesta party in highend content is easier for me than DRG, I always have to spend a lot of time practicing the latter before even performing decently.
Someone else will be the opposite and perform better if the rotation or general gameplay is very rigid but struggle with any form of rng or unforseen circumstances.
For every single question you'll get different answers from different people and punishing people by getting locked out for enjoying a job that just so happens to not having to deal with some things is stupid.

People will play what they want unless pushed to the limit as we've seen this tier. People still played PLD until they hit a brickwall with the dps check and ended up being the deadweight by choosing the "wrong" class.
Saying that if a job was easy and brings good dps, nobody would play a job that has to put in more work for the same result is a myth that needs to die once and for all. Some people are drawn to classes that challenge them more and will always prefer them, doesn't matter if that other class right next to them gets the same result for something that would challenge them less. Some people just like specific aesthetics or gameplay and locking them out because they like the caster/ melee mix of RDM or the sustained dps from PLD but someone decided they're not deserving of week 1 clears goes against everything the devs tried to promote for this game.

If someone can't stand the thought that someone might deal the same damage for "less" work than just go for that class and stop crying. And if someone really enjoys the class, then what is even the problem with someone else getting the same result for "less" work? This is really just "waah waah I don't want that other kid to be good too waah waah" disguised as a noble goal.

[Rithy255]

I've played Dark Knight and Gunbreaker this expansion.
I can confirm that DRK and GNB aren't hard to play at a level good enough to claim ultimate and week 1 clears.

PLD is much more difficult to play on its offensive rotation but also on management of defensive cooldowns.

I think I pick PLD for comfort at this point because I've generally always "mained" it, But when leveling Drk/war particular I found it really easy to know what to do, Gunbreaker doesn't really have much of a learning curve either, The other tanks don't really compare to high end PLD.

Plds defensives are the one thing I'm not a big fan of, Holy Shelltron is generally fine (weird dot mechs and being stunned can suck for blocks) shared CD's (20% rampart and 30% mits), The problem with it's self healing being tied to your magic burst I never really control a big portion of your self sustain, I don't think cover should really exist, DV being worse shake, Passage can be good but I'm not a fan of how it works ect. I think PLDs defensive kit could use a big touch up in the future but I really doubt they're going to look at anything like that, I'd also like to see tanks have more unique defensive kit in general, I do find PLDs kit in defence just more clunky and situational in general, I think what annoys me is being lowest damage and having bad defensives but "meh pld utility tank" when Plds utility is pretty questionable at best.

I like PLD in general I would like some changes to the Job, but generally not to it's rotation (sadly it's likely going to get just rotation changes hopefully nothing that would ruin the job), I just want to keep the idenity offensively of being a skilled swordsman with strong magical powers, I really liked the sort of characters with great physical powers but also pretty good affinity for magic (hence me being a red mage enjoyer aswell), I also wouldn't want the difficulty in general to be bogged down too much, streamlining is fine just don't think it needs to be too streamlined... which im afraid of

[Semirhage]

Not balancing on difficulty does nothing but punish those that excel at higher complexity Jobs

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "here's why this job I don't play deserves to be worse than mine in every single way" yak yak yak yak.

I've heard it a hundred times in the healer forums, it's just as stupid here.

Also melee aren't "complex". If anything, modern encounter design makes positionals and uptime a breeze. What they currently (and have always) heavily forced on players is movement. Why, then, given this design paradigm, are the "hardest to play/most rewarded" jobs not the casters then? Since their explicit weakness is needing to remain immobile for stretches of time?