Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Avoidy]

Summoner gets a Party regen and a strong targeted party member regen, I think that more then makes up for magick barrier personally,

No it doesn't, because the Phoenix regen isn't an on-demand heal over time. You get it when you summon Phoenix, which you'd do as soon as it's available because that's how your rotation flows on SMN, not because of outgoing party damage. Magick Barrier is on demand damage mitigation that you can plan for and use whenever you want as long as it's not on CD. A vast majority of the time when I use phoenix, its party heal goes out to a group that's already topped off because phoenix didn't line up with any outgoing party damage and holding phoenix excessively to wait for damage to occur is wildly sub-optimal and pointless. If magicked barrier were like smn regen, you'd be forced to use it the second it came off cd, whether there was damage incoming or not. You would have zero actual agency over when it went out, and most of the time it would accomplish nothing.

This comparison is honestly so inaccurate, and it's what I meant by bad faith arguments earlier. Even disregarding the difference between raw mitigation and healing over time, just the fact that MB can be used on demand makes it so much better.

[Ivtrix]

This is pretty much how I feel as well. RDM also gets a barrier that shields the group against magic damage (i.e. raidwides), while SMN gets nothing like this unless you count addle, which every caster gets as a role action anyway. I'm not sure why you aren't including this under utility, but I do and so do most people when they talk about this kind of thing.

Basically, I'm just tired. I agree that RDM could use some love, but the people talking about doing more dps than smn "bcuz its ez" clearly just want their job to be on top and don't actually care about a balanced game.

It also depends how much you value a group utility like magic barrier vs personal utility. Shade shift and manaward and SMN shield are all very useful utilities, its just they are personal use. Obviously a group utility has the edge, but anyone who has a personal utility gets to theoretically double dip.

[FireMage]

I'm a PLD main, so yes my job was being cut off from PF (as was RDM and MCH), and RDM is one of my favorite DPS to play too as I love its playstyle. The point of bringing RDM is that it's the same total DPS as every other job, as because it does less personal damage (currently the case), it makes up for it by buffing everyone else. Why bring a BRD or a DNC currently to Savage? Because while they do low personal damage, they make up for it in raid damage buffs. That's the point I'm making here and something you don't seem to understand. If every job is close to equal in total DPS contribution, then that means buffs like Mug, Embolden, Technical Finish, etc. are included and expected for the job, making every job viable in Savage raids. While RDM may do lower personal damage, they make up for it by buffing everyone else through Embolden (and any other additional buffs they need). You can keep your same rotation, just make Embolden's numbers bigger and perhaps their personal DPS as well if that's what's necessary. I just don't think RDM should do as much personal damage as most other jobs because it's against their core job identity (in my opinion), and if they did, then their total contribution would be too high and OP (like NIN currently is, which I also love NIN because it's meant to be more of a support DPS).

So to summarize: no one is saying nerf RDM. They're already among the bottom. What I'm saying is they should be near the bottom, but not greater than 1% difference, and most of their contribution of DPS should be similar to that of a BRD's or DNC's: through buffing others. They don't have to change their current playstyle of casting and melee combo, you can keep that. Just increase Embolden if necessary, and/or their personal DPS if that's necessary to get them where they need to be.

The differences in total DPS now are way too high, far more than 1%, which is what has caused this schism and PF blocking. The root cause of this schism are both fight design (too melee friendly) and poor job balance. Both need to be addressed, and it is likely a lot of the lower rDPS jobs (like RDM and MCH) will need both buffs in their raid damage buffs and personal DPS to be brought to about 1% difference in each other.

RDM shouldn't be at the bottom, MCH and SMN should. RDM should be in the middle of the pack, along with RPR. The gap should be ~5%, not 1% and definitely not the ~11% we have now. You just don't understand how balance works

[Aikaal]

RDM shouldn't be at the bottom, MCH and SMN should. RDM should be in the middle of the pack, along with RPR. The gap should be ~5%, not 1% and definitely not the ~11% we have now. You just don't understand how balance works

You're making really bad jokes when you say that and it's no wonder people don't take you seriously.

But I will add facts into this conversation with actual evidences that y'all need to understand complexity involves the fight directly. Back in Stormblood, I was a Melee DPS. When I would get downtime.

Here is a video of a week 1 clear of a DRG PoV. I've put the timestamp to point my point. https://youtu.be/jISBDvFG3S4?t=73 Look at how tiny the hitbox is and look. Hello World is basically High Concept. Notice how the fight is still going and you still have to DPS? Notice how this Dragoon is forced to take the L and disengage and use his backflip to get back into the fight faster? He's still second DPS and that's taking into account the BRD is doing 5% more due to Piercing Debuff from the Dragoon. During that time, the tax to help Melee was valid.

How about we check this tier's last boss as a melee DPS? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9_t7md58v0

- No downtime (100% melee uptime)
- No positional Cry me a freaking river Melee DPS
- Every single mechanic in the fight including Natural Alignment happens in the enormous hitbox of the box so Melee can DPS.
- High Concept which WOULD induce melee downtime by the nature of mechanics has the boss conveniently invulnerable.

High Concept is the equivalent of Hello World. Why is the boss invulnerable now? Because it would suck for melee DPS. So SE designed the fight for you to not DPS on it. This is not only unfair to ranged and caster DPS who are getting taxed for no reason anymore. This is ridiculously unfair to healers who still have to plan mitigations and I can tell you a good amount of my groups wipes were healers figuring out. I had nothing to do. I guess I had to think about Radiant Aegis epelaugh:

So let's redefine DPS in this fight.
Caster DPS: A DPS that has to plan their movement during uptime and mechanics. Summoners gets the excuse they are basically a physical ranged DPS with 4 casts per minute.
Ranged DPS: A DPS that has infinite mobility.
Melee DPS: A DPS that has infinite mobility with a 10% damage buff over Ranged and Caster.

And y'all talking how SMN and MCH should do trash damage because they are brain dead? Look at this Ninja. This was a target dummy fight for him. I don't really care if you're saying they press a lot more buttons than other jobs. So does Machinist? There is no more complexity in fights for melee DPS. There is no more difficulty. Melee DPS is just a ranged physical DPS that doesn't go on the backrow.

I'll go even further and beyond. https://xivanalysis.com/fflogs/VmgJQXdBHFbNPWcK/7 This is their week 1 clear xivanalysis. They have purposefully delayed their last buff window for the Summoner who dropped Phoenix before Ego Death and when they got the buff, the SMN went and quickened his primal summons to get Bahamut ASAP in the buff window:



They got the clear with 1 death. By doing that, the SMN got a final Phoenix which was a free 1300 potency oGCD. The result of them making this choice was definitely not "brain dead". They gave it a lot of thoughts and SMN truly shine on those 1/2 minutes buff windows. This shows one thing. It doesn't matter how smooth and easy a rotation is on a target dummy. What defines a big part of the complexity of a rotation is the fight design. The fight designs have been making it so friendly to melee DPS that it makes it really easy for them. People would like to make you think that MCH and SMN are brain dead. "Look at their stupid silly rotation! Mine is harder!" They definitely will omit to say that thanks to this optimization, that group cleared week 1 P8S with a death.

So, yeah, I firmly believe all casters and ranged DPS need to be uplifted to melee DPS with a 2% to 3% difference. If you feel this is wrong, you are one of the following;
- You don't raid seriously and you have no idea what you're talking about but you have the right to post your opinion here.
- You secretly hate the jobs you want to see at the bottom. This is especially true to a few Red Mage mains that are tired to always be behind SMN and they have a new bullet called "SMN is easy compared to RDM"
- You are biased toward a role. Many Melee DPS wants to remain the DPS King role.
- You have no knowledge of the actual job you are criticizing
- You are a one trick player

Take Firemage for example. He only plays RDM. He doesn't play SMN & BLM and yet he gives himself the right to say SMN/MCH is doing no damage. He has no knowledge of those jobs, he didn't even know you could work around the rotation that this week 1 group I posted did. He's very biased to be playing RDM only. I'm sorry dude, I can't take you seriously. You don't have enough experience to make such claim and while you're free to post your opinions, SE may look at them and that's dangerous. If you're looking for RDM to deal more DPS, then you should target more specific reasons why RDM is doing lower damage: raise.

[FireMage]

When I said "bring along," I meant for parties to want them in their groups. No group is going to care about your personal flavor preference when they address viability. It's great if people still want to play the job even if it's broken in a bad way, but we've seen how pf just bans jobs from their groups. Btw, loving how when smn becomes not-viable, it's fine "because people will still play it for fun," but when rdm is on the bottom it's not fine and needs to be addressed immediately.

Except that if had bothered to read anything I've been saying you'd see that viability would be a near non issue. You realize that if things were properly balanced that the DPS difference would be ~500 instead of the current 1000+ between lowest to highest ceiling on DPS. When things are that close together the only time you'd care about the absolute best would be at the highest of the high end and they're already building around meta

And I disagree with your proposed solutioni

Your disagreement is irrelevant. I have cited what proper balance IS. And difficulty is not subjective, to say that is to either be uneducated or lie. Pick which

So, yeah, I firmly believe all casters and ranged DPS need to be uplifted to melee DPS with a 2% to 3% difference. If you feel this is wrong, you are one of the following;
- You don't raid seriously and you have no idea what you're talking about but you have the right to post your opinion here.
- You secretly hate the jobs you want to see at the bottom. This is especially true to a few Red Mage mains that are tired to always be behind SMN and they have a new bullet called "SMN is easy compared to RDM"
- You are biased toward a role. Many Melee DPS wants to remain the DPS King role.
- You have no knowledge of the actual job you are criticizing
- You are a one trick player

Take Firemage for example. He only plays RDM. He doesn't play SMN & BLM and yet he gives himself the right to say SMN/MCH is doing no damage. He has no knowledge of those jobs, he didn't even know you could work around the rotation that this week 1 group I posted did. He's very biased to be playing RDM only. I'm sorry dude, I can't take you seriously. You don't have enough experience to make such claim and while you're free to post your opinions, SE may look at them and that's dangerous. If you're looking for RDM to deal more DPS, then you should target more specific reasons why RDM is doing lower damage: raise.

Let's see I'm none of those things, so I guess your logic is flawed, not surprised though. RDM is objectively harder than each phys ranged and SMN to play. Hence why it shouldn't be at the problem. Raising is already taxed, by a loss of what equates to over 400 potency each time, enough is enough

[Aikaal]

Let's see I'm none of those things, so I guess your logic is flawed, not surprised though. RDM is objectively harder than each phys ranged and SMN to play. Hence why it shouldn't be at the problem. Raising is already taxed, by a loss of what equates to over 400 potency each time, enough is enough

Take it with a grain of salt but https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/.../firemage%20li

Only RDM clears on savage for Stormblood, Shadowbringers and Endwalker. You definitely fit RDM one trick player. That also falls down that you have no knowledge for other jobs. You only want RDM to be good over others. You have opinions and you're biased which mean you are not contributing to the balance issues we're facing. It does suck your one job you play isn't performing right now but that doesn't give you the right to trick others to believe other jobs deserve worse.

Feel free to look at mine. https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/...0leyma#zone=44

Posted it on the previous content to show I logged on all 3 caster DPS. You can check I don't have TEA clear but I did clear DSR on RDM. I've also played Tank during ShB and I was a main melee DPS in Stormblood.

As an edit; I would point any of those out if you weren't so stubborn into believe that you're right when you clearly lack the basic knowledge. You have a lot of hot takes but nothing to back them up.

[CKNovel]

Snip for sake of lisibility

The same logic as before: Every job is braindead until your start to optimize the most ridiculous gain.
This is the only depth of the game and the only aspect that requires knowledge of the game when it comes to jobs.
You brought data and solid argument and have nothing more to prove, I believe everyone agrees with you.

Thought I offer you a friendly advice:
Don't make the same mistake as me and waste energy into convincing a biased individual that their own job is conveniently harder than the others.
You're simply facing someone who's jealous of your performance and clears, trying to lower you on their own level to beat you.

[FireMage]

I meant from a viability standpoint. If you give RDM more damage than SMN, then SMN just becomes a caster with less damage than a rdm, a worse res than rdm, worse utility than a rdm, and arguably a worse party buff as well. There is functionally no reason to bring SMN for anything at that point.

Other than flavor preference (or unable to handle a complicated Job), which is kind of the point...

See XIV wants to satisfy the following: All Jobs are viable. But they also should be satisfying the following: Jobs are balanced. The only real way to achieve both is too make it so the gap before lowest amd highest Jobs is negligible, while maintaining proper balance which demands that their be gaps based on several factors. The way to resolve this is mini tiers based on all the factors of difficulty (which in actuality is the only true tax). Which be basically come out to be BLM > MNK/NIN/DRG/SAM > RPR/RDM > BRD/DNC > SMN/MCH. This is the only real solution for how the Jobs currently are

[SaberMaxwell]

I've always said that difficulty tax was a bull idea, its no less bull now that RDM is "harder than Summoner" than it was for the four years I've been told it deserves to be weak because its "more mobile and less complex than smn/blm."

Aikaal is right. Everyone needs to be lifted up and the gap closed. Any finer details in balance can be looked at and solved later, the problem right now is they needed to nerf a fight because they foresaw that current job balance was not acceptable and making a damage check that tight revealed it to the world.

We can have entire discussions about the power of "spammable" raise vs the power of essentially having a second phys ranged that has a raise, or who needs less braincells than who to push a button and see pretty lights for that glorious neuron activation but bottom line: that cliff between melee/blm and everyone else? Its still a problem for everyone else. Then in 7.0 the problem of raise should be addressed.

[FireMage]

Take it with a grain of salt but https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/.../firemage%20li

Only RDM clears on savage for Stormblood, Shadowbringers and Endwalker. You definitely fit RDM one trick player. That also falls down that you have no knowledge for other jobs. You only want RDM to be good over others. You have opinions and you're biased which mean you are not contributing to the balance issues we're facing. It does suck your one job you play isn't performing right now but that doesn't give you the right to trick others to believe other jobs deserve worse.

Feel free to look at mine. https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/...0leyma#zone=44

Posted it on the previous content to show I logged on all 3 caster DPS. You can check I don't have TEA clear but I did clear DSR on RDM. I've also played Tank during ShB and I was a main melee DPS in Stormblood.

As an edit; I would point any of those out if you weren't so stubborn into believe that you're right when you clearly lack the basic knowledge. You have a lot of hot takes but nothing to back them up.

Might wish to do a bigger deep dive and see my tank and healer parses when helping out others. Try again. Also ad hominem, has no actual impact on balance knowledge. You are dismissed