Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Mithron]

Obviously there's been a lot of hot discussion about this topic, so I'd like to further add more discussion to it.

One thing I've realized recently is that I no longer look at jobs based on their current sub-roles: melee, physical ranged or caster. I now only look at jobs based on Selfish DPS, Moderate Support, or Heavy Support. This is all I think about when considering how much aDPS a job should do, given I believe all jobs should be within 1% of each other in total rDPS.

So looking at each job as to what they currently bring for raid damage buffs:

Selfish DPS: BLM > SAM > MCH
These are the guys who should be top 3 aDPS above all others. The only time I consider things such as job difficulty or mobility is when comparing it to these others in their "new" sub role. I don't compare MCH to other physical ranged, I compare MCH to other selfish DPS jobs. I think BLM is less mobile and higher skill cap than SAM, and SAM is higher than MCH given MCH's mobility, so I think this is how it should be.

Moderate Support: MNK > RPR > SMN > DRG > NIN
These are the guys that bring some raid damage, but not as heavy as others. Thus they're the middle of the pack. It just so happens most of these jobs are melee, though I would not be opposed to seeing DRG and NIN drop to heavy buffer if their raid buffs were equivalently improved, as I think that fits their job identity personally. I also think it would be neat if all of SMN's summons had support auras like Phoenix does and turn them more into a BRD-esque caster, but that's a whole other can of worms of a topic lol.

Heavy Support: RDM > BRD > DNC
These are the guys that don't do much aDPS but bring tons of raid damage buffs. Sadly, RDM's Embolden doesn't really do that enough currently so probably needs to be addressed. This brings me to my next major point.

I do not believe that defensive/healing/raising utility and mitigation on DPS jobs should affect their aDPS. This is important because rDPS should be within 1% of all jobs. I do not believe in Raise, Vercure, Tactician or Addle/Feint taxes. Leave these types of taxes to the tanks since tanks have no raid damage buffs (and I don't believe ever should).

So now we come across to how this could affect party composition. I believe the standard SE wants most parties to be is 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 melee, 1 physical ranged and 1 caster. While that sounds great on paper, we run into problems like MCH were they may have decent aDPS but their rDPS is so terrible compared to all other jobs that they are just not valued for their ranged slot compared to any other job, much less BRDs or DNCs. This was only further compiled against them with P8s' fight design heavily favoring melee uptime and having such a strict DPS check.

How would party compositions change if we looked strictly at raid damage buffs instead of the classic "melee/physical ranged/caster" that seem to define each job's damage?

[FireMage]

And this logic fails due to not considering actual difficulty. MCH shouldn't be doing as much damage as a RDM, just like SMN. Also all rDPS numbers being within 1% of each other is not true balance

[Mithron]

And this logic fails due to not considering actual difficulty. MCH shouldn't be doing as much damage as a RDM, just like SMN. Also all rDPS numbers being within 1% of each other is not true balance

The only time difficulty should matter is when in the same role of raid damage buff jobs. MCH isn't in the same role as RDM or SMN, it's in the same role as Selfish DPS like BLM and SAM, therefore must do BLM and SAM damage, regardless of "difficulty."

[FireMage]

The only time difficulty should matter is when in the same role of raid damage buff jobs. MCH isn't in the same role as RDM or SMN, it's in the same role as Selfish DPS like BLM and SAM, therefore must do BLM and SAM damage, regardless of "difficulty."

No, absolutely not. That is not actual balance, even ASSUMING full uptime MCH should be lower than every other Job on rDPS, sans SMN which it should be tied with. It is weaker than it should be, but it should still be the bottom of the ceiling

[Mithron]

No, absolutely not. That is not actual balance, even ASSUMING full uptime MCH should be lower than every other Job on rDPS, sans SMN which it should be tied with.

Why? If a job is easy and therefore low DPS, it's not playable especially if it has no raid damage buffs. That's not balance or logical. That's stupid. The argument for "uptime" is irrelevant because that's a fight design issue as P8s has proven. We're no longer playing a game where "uptime" is a factor any more.

[FireMage]

Why? If a job is easy and therefore low DPS, it's not playable especially if it has no raid damage buffs. That's not balance or logical. That's stupid. The argument for "uptime" is irrelevant because that's a fight design issue as P8s has proven. We're no longer playing a game where "uptime" is a factor any more.

Because difficulty is a part of proper balance is why, I ALREADY said this. You really should read before replying. You also left out that I should that MCH should be doing more damage than now, so should a few other Jobs in fact, but that doesn't change that MCH should be tied with SMN on the lowest rung of the DPS ladder

[Azuri]

Ignoring that the list ranking is kinda yikes (Functionally, Mug is the exact same as Embolden. Why are RDM and NIN in different groups?) and calling damage buffs "support" is a meme, the fundamental flaw of your logic is that aDPS is not a function of simply damage, it also depends on damage distribution.

Burst heavy jobs simply have more aDPS by default. SAM and NIN are aDPS monsters with how concentrated their burst is. On the other hand, BLM or DRG simply can't compete because their potency is more spread out and they are fundamentally incapable of utilizing 20 second buff window as well as other jobs. The same happens in every other role. RDM vs. SMN, MCH vs. DNC, WAR vs. DRK. It's really not that simple to just say that X job should do more aDPS because it doesn't have a damage buff. Unless of course we design every job like DRK...

[CKNovel]

Because difficulty is a part of proper balance is why, I ALREADY said this. You really should read before replying. You also left out that I should that MCH should be doing more damage than now, so should a few other Jobs in fact, but that doesn't change that MCH should be tied with SMN on the lowest rung of the DPS ladder

Difficulty is subjective.
I found Sekiro easier than all Dark souls but many had the opposite experience.

On top of that, balancing around difficulty would be incredibly biased and unbalanced.
If MCH was balanced around its difficulty, it would never be brought in any group.
It's SQEX that design the job, it's not the player fault if they can't or refuse to make a job hard.

[darcstar62]

I agree that RDMs current buffs aren't good enough to qualify them as "Heavy Support" (as you said, Embolden needs more impact to do that, and I feel like it needs more abilities in that are like DNC/BRD). But the danger of moving RDM in this direction is that it puts more pressure on the other heavy support jobs - unlike selfish dps and mid-support, you aren't going to want more than one of them in your party because of they way they scale.

[FireMage]

Difficulty is subjective.

It's really not. There isn't a single case where SMN is harder than RDM. There isn't a single case where MCH is harder than DNC/BRD. Also it's already "not brought" but it would at least do more damage with proper balance