Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[FireMage]

This is unfortunately at the current "balance" 100% factually incorrect currently. You can currently do 3x melee partys and do vastly more damage than having 1 caster in the party. That is the major current issue. While fire mage has a lot wrong, you are extremely incorrect on this.


Incorrect when jobs are properly balanced, the 1% party bonus for having a cater outweighs having 3 dps. this greatly impacts dps competing for each other. If only 1 casted does viable damage, then that caster will be the only one allowed in content over another physical.

Which is happening currently p6 and p7 both have no mages which is very common.

You literally just proved me right in a way, you realize that yes? That DPS compete with one another, independent of the party bonus

[FireMage]

Like i said, this is the only argument you have.

Well given it's a fact I don't need anything else

[Housinginneed]

Well given it's a fact I don't need anything else

Not sure at which international convention they decided the formula [difficulty = more damage in mmo = balance] but, sure if you say that design philosophy is somehow "fact" then okay, I can't help you.

There isn't any point debating this guy because this guy is playing FFXIV the MOBA, while the rest of us are playing FFXIV the mmo. He wants the game to be balanced like a competitive e-sport game and can't see it any other way since this is probably his first mmo.

[FireMage]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "here's why this job I don't play deserves to be worse than mine in every single way" yak yak yak yak.

I've heard it a hundred times in the healer forums, it's just as stupid here.

Also melee aren't "complex". If anything, modern encounter design makes positionals and uptime a breeze. What they currently (and have always) heavily forced on players is movement. Why, then, given this design paradigm, are the "hardest to play/most rewarded" jobs not the casters then? Since their explicit weakness is needing to remain immobile for stretches of time?

It's not stupid at all, it's how proper balance works. It's why AST deserves the top spot, why DRK does for tanks. Also one of the casters, BLM deserves to be top DPS due to its design. However SMN has the easiest rotation of all the DPS, and almost complete mobility. Movement does factor into this, when did I say it didn't?

[Rithy255]

It's not stupid at all, it's how proper balance works. It's why AST deserves the top spot, why DRK does for tanks. Also one of the casters, BLM deserves to be top DPS due to its design. However SMN has the easiest rotation of all the DPS, and almost complete mobility. Movement does factor into this, when did I say it didn't?

You think dark knight is the hardest tank? yeah no "lots of buttons" and spamming 1, 2, 3 isn't hard, Paladin and Gunbreaker are generally considered more difficult.

Why are you trying to balance on difficulty when you also don't know what you're talking about in terms of what makes a job difficult? does "busy = Difficult" to you? The fact that melee dps are so far ahead of everyone when the fights are more tailored to you, when your rotations are pretty simple on samurai and Reaper compared to a lot of other jobs.

I don't think it's a bad thing to reward a job slightly but again where do we draw the line, who asked for a certain job to be so easy? Why should some jobs be punished so much for being considered easier, the only thing you've shown is bias towards what you find more difficult, because people find a lot of different jobs more difficult then what you find difficult, theirs no factual statement on difficulty.

[FireMage]

You think dark knight is the hardest tank? yeah no "lots of buttons" and spamming 1, 2, 3 isn't hard, Paladin and Gunbreaker are generally considered more difficult.

Why are you trying to balance on difficulty when you also don't know what you're talking about in terms of what makes a job difficult? does "busy = Difficult" to you? The fact that melee dps are so far ahead of everyone when the fights are more tailored to you, when your rotations are pretty simple on samurai and Reaper compared to a lot of other jobs.

I don't think it's a bad thing to reward a job slightly but again where do we draw the line, who asked for a certain job to be so easy? Why should some jobs be punished so much for being considered easier, the only thing you've shown is bias towards what you find more difficult, because people find a lot of different jobs more difficult then what you find difficult, theirs no factual statement on difficulty.

They would be slight. Have you been paying attention to ANYTHING I've been saying? The gap between the DPS is over 10% from the top to the bottom. It's over 1300 DPS right now, proper balance would keep the ceiling where it is, move BLM to be said ceiling and then bring the others to within ~500 DPS of it. Proper balance has the answers, I'm just the messenger

[Rithy255]

They would be slight. Have you been paying attention to ANYTHING I've been saying? The gap between the DPS is over 10% from the top to the bottom. It's over 1300 DPS right now, proper balance would keep the ceiling where it is, move BLM to be said ceiling and then bring the others to within ~500 DPS of it. Proper balance has the answers, I'm just the messenger

Well I remember you saying every ranged job is easier then every melee job, I don't take issue with slightly rewarding Jobs that are "harder" but the issue we have is everyone finds difficulty subjective so it would be a hard to even determine with a lot of jobs, I don't think your ideal on what makes a job difficult or not is anymore consistent then mine or any other player.

I guess jobs such as >Reaper, Samurai, Dancer and Summoner are generally look towards being easier, but again who asked for summoner to be made so much more easier why shouldn't summoner get some more complexity inside of it's kit instead of punishing players for playing it, theirs a lot of issues balancing with difficulty as a reward, 5% would be pushing it and players would generally be unsatisfied with their mains still not performing well because it's easy, I 100% agree on black mage being the most high damage job as theirs more factors then "rotational" difficulty at play for BLM, but most jobs once you've played it for a while and got it down with muscle memory, the difficulty on it becomes less of a factor.

I don't think anyone disagrees that 1300 is way too much and it's fine to have a small skill ceiling for jobs such as Black Mage.

[Aikaal]

Snip

I'd say there's no value trying to save this one. FireMage is a one trick RDM player with the arrogance that he apparently knows all the job in savage. His subjective experience is clearly what the entire player base feels in his eyes. There's no way... everybody in the OF is right and him, the sole player in his corner, could be wrong.

He doesn't even know which role his RDM is and who he should competes against x__x

[Dzian]

proper balance

Proper balance would be every single job in the game making a perfectly equal contribution when played to 100% of its capability.

It's kinda impossible to hit though because some contributions can be difficult to quantify.

RDM and SMN both have raise for example. However in my opinion just having access to raise should not mean those jobs are notably weaker than BLM in damage.

In a fight where those raises aren't needed they contribute absolutely zero to the party, Where as in a fight where those raises are needed, they already come at the cost of reducing the damage those jobs contribute.

How easy or difficult a job is to play should have ZERO impact on proper balance. In a well-designed environment they might all have different skill floors or different skill curves but at the ceiling, they would almost all be perfectly equal in terms of overall contribution. Not really possible in this game for numerous reasons. *EPIC PAINT SKILLZ ALERT*

This would loosely represent proper balance.

Job A might be your average job with an almost linear skill curve. An almost direct correlation between effort and contribution

Job B might be seen as an easier job for beginners to pick up because it makes a greater contribution to the party for less effort. but at the same time after a point in player skill or effort, it becomes harder to optimize than Job A.

Job C might be seen as a harder job for newer or less experienced players as it requires significantly more effort to compete with jobs A and B but also ends up being easier to optimize.

But when played to 100% all 3 jobs make an almost equal contribution to the party. That's proper balance. So in theory given that MCH SMN and BLM all contribute absolutely nothing but DPS to the party. At the skill ceilieng they should all do the same amount of damage in order to make an equal contribution and thus be properly balanced, regardless of how easy or difficult they are to play.

Arbitarily making a job contribute less because its easier is flawed. people choose jobs based on thematics and aesthetics more than how easy or hard they are to play.

SMN is one of the most difficult jobs to play.... the difficulty isnt its rotation though its just staying awake...

[Aurora428]

Part of the fun of playing a particular job is its contribution to the team.

Prange/caster simply just isn't fun if it's held down by an arbitrary bonus.

Yes shooting a gun is very fun and cool, but it takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to not be aware that you are also good at Samurai and could just be doing 1k more dps.

If someone asked me to point out a single flaw with this game, it would be the "DPS dumpster bin" we only see claim more and more jobs with time since ShB.

This is something they REALLY just need to let go of. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater with the Pierce Down meta.