Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Arguscbf]

I mean, on that same token I could ask if you *really* want to compare verraise to having one solid res that burns your swiftcast and results in a gimped rotation for the entire fight.

But nah, I don't want to do that, because that wasn't my main point. My point's never even been about job difficulty, because I'll agree that SMN is streamlined as hell. But it should still do more damage than RDM, because without that damage difference, there's no viable reason for it to exist, and it's just a worse RDM in every conceivable way. This is my main point. I only nitpicked because I found it amusing to watch you talk about melee range and then immediately bring up ifrit.



RDM would have a better party buff, better personal mitigation, and a better res. Nobody would be out here like "damn, SMN really lags behind on everything, but boy can it walk! Let's bring it anyway!" We literally saw this last tier before the devs gave it potency buffs, and SMN was dumpstered.

If i have to pinpoint this kind of thing, about being on melee range, i have to be fair, right? But still, RDM suffers the most because of its long casting spells. SMN has Ifrit's dash but have TONS of insta casting spells.

[Aikaal]

RDM shouldn't be at the bottom, MCH and SMN should. RDM should be in the middle of the pack, along with RPR. The gap should be ~5%, not 1% and definitely not the ~11% we have now. You just don't understand how balance works

You're making really bad jokes when you say that and it's no wonder people don't take you seriously.

But I will add facts into this conversation with actual evidences that y'all need to understand complexity involves the fight directly. Back in Stormblood, I was a Melee DPS. When I would get downtime.

Here is a video of a week 1 clear of a DRG PoV. I've put the timestamp to point my point. https://youtu.be/jISBDvFG3S4?t=73 Look at how tiny the hitbox is and look. Hello World is basically High Concept. Notice how the fight is still going and you still have to DPS? Notice how this Dragoon is forced to take the L and disengage and use his backflip to get back into the fight faster? He's still second DPS and that's taking into account the BRD is doing 5% more due to Piercing Debuff from the Dragoon. During that time, the tax to help Melee was valid.

How about we check this tier's last boss as a melee DPS? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9_t7md58v0

- No downtime (100% melee uptime)
- No positional Cry me a freaking river Melee DPS
- Every single mechanic in the fight including Natural Alignment happens in the enormous hitbox of the box so Melee can DPS.
- High Concept which WOULD induce melee downtime by the nature of mechanics has the boss conveniently invulnerable.

High Concept is the equivalent of Hello World. Why is the boss invulnerable now? Because it would suck for melee DPS. So SE designed the fight for you to not DPS on it. This is not only unfair to ranged and caster DPS who are getting taxed for no reason anymore. This is ridiculously unfair to healers who still have to plan mitigations and I can tell you a good amount of my groups wipes were healers figuring out. I had nothing to do. I guess I had to think about Radiant Aegis epelaugh:

So let's redefine DPS in this fight.
Caster DPS: A DPS that has to plan their movement during uptime and mechanics. Summoners gets the excuse they are basically a physical ranged DPS with 4 casts per minute.
Ranged DPS: A DPS that has infinite mobility.
Melee DPS: A DPS that has infinite mobility with a 10% damage buff over Ranged and Caster.

And y'all talking how SMN and MCH should do trash damage because they are brain dead? Look at this Ninja. This was a target dummy fight for him. I don't really care if you're saying they press a lot more buttons than other jobs. So does Machinist? There is no more complexity in fights for melee DPS. There is no more difficulty. Melee DPS is just a ranged physical DPS that doesn't go on the backrow.

I'll go even further and beyond. https://xivanalysis.com/fflogs/VmgJQXdBHFbNPWcK/7 This is their week 1 clear xivanalysis. They have purposefully delayed their last buff window for the Summoner who dropped Phoenix before Ego Death and when they got the buff, the SMN went and quickened his primal summons to get Bahamut ASAP in the buff window:



They got the clear with 1 death. By doing that, the SMN got a final Phoenix which was a free 1300 potency oGCD. The result of them making this choice was definitely not "brain dead". They gave it a lot of thoughts and SMN truly shine on those 1/2 minutes buff windows. This shows one thing. It doesn't matter how smooth and easy a rotation is on a target dummy. What defines a big part of the complexity of a rotation is the fight design. The fight designs have been making it so friendly to melee DPS that it makes it really easy for them. People would like to make you think that MCH and SMN are brain dead. "Look at their stupid silly rotation! Mine is harder!" They definitely will omit to say that thanks to this optimization, that group cleared week 1 P8S with a death.

So, yeah, I firmly believe all casters and ranged DPS need to be uplifted to melee DPS with a 2% to 3% difference. If you feel this is wrong, you are one of the following;
- You don't raid seriously and you have no idea what you're talking about but you have the right to post your opinion here.
- You secretly hate the jobs you want to see at the bottom. This is especially true to a few Red Mage mains that are tired to always be behind SMN and they have a new bullet called "SMN is easy compared to RDM"
- You are biased toward a role. Many Melee DPS wants to remain the DPS King role.
- You have no knowledge of the actual job you are criticizing
- You are a one trick player

Take Firemage for example. He only plays RDM. He doesn't play SMN & BLM and yet he gives himself the right to say SMN/MCH is doing no damage. He has no knowledge of those jobs, he didn't even know you could work around the rotation that this week 1 group I posted did. He's very biased to be playing RDM only. I'm sorry dude, I can't take you seriously. You don't have enough experience to make such claim and while you're free to post your opinions, SE may look at them and that's dangerous. If you're looking for RDM to deal more DPS, then you should target more specific reasons why RDM is doing lower damage: raise.

[SaberMaxwell]

I've always said that difficulty tax was a bull idea, its no less bull now that RDM is "harder than Summoner" than it was for the four years I've been told it deserves to be weak because its "more mobile and less complex than smn/blm."

Aikaal is right. Everyone needs to be lifted up and the gap closed. Any finer details in balance can be looked at and solved later, the problem right now is they needed to nerf a fight because they foresaw that current job balance was not acceptable and making a damage check that tight revealed it to the world.

We can have entire discussions about the power of "spammable" raise vs the power of essentially having a second phys ranged that has a raise, or who needs less braincells than who to push a button and see pretty lights for that glorious neuron activation but bottom line: that cliff between melee/blm and everyone else? Its still a problem for everyone else. Then in 7.0 the problem of raise should be addressed.

[FireMage]

When I said "bring along," I meant for parties to want them in their groups. No group is going to care about your personal flavor preference when they address viability. It's great if people still want to play the job even if it's broken in a bad way, but we've seen how pf just bans jobs from their groups. Btw, loving how when smn becomes not-viable, it's fine "because people will still play it for fun," but when rdm is on the bottom it's not fine and needs to be addressed immediately.

Except that if had bothered to read anything I've been saying you'd see that viability would be a near non issue. You realize that if things were properly balanced that the DPS difference would be ~500 instead of the current 1000+ between lowest to highest ceiling on DPS. When things are that close together the only time you'd care about the absolute best would be at the highest of the high end and they're already building around meta

And I disagree with your proposed solutioni

Your disagreement is irrelevant. I have cited what proper balance IS. And difficulty is not subjective, to say that is to either be uneducated or lie. Pick which

So, yeah, I firmly believe all casters and ranged DPS need to be uplifted to melee DPS with a 2% to 3% difference. If you feel this is wrong, you are one of the following;
- You don't raid seriously and you have no idea what you're talking about but you have the right to post your opinion here.
- You secretly hate the jobs you want to see at the bottom. This is especially true to a few Red Mage mains that are tired to always be behind SMN and they have a new bullet called "SMN is easy compared to RDM"
- You are biased toward a role. Many Melee DPS wants to remain the DPS King role.
- You have no knowledge of the actual job you are criticizing
- You are a one trick player

Take Firemage for example. He only plays RDM. He doesn't play SMN & BLM and yet he gives himself the right to say SMN/MCH is doing no damage. He has no knowledge of those jobs, he didn't even know you could work around the rotation that this week 1 group I posted did. He's very biased to be playing RDM only. I'm sorry dude, I can't take you seriously. You don't have enough experience to make such claim and while you're free to post your opinions, SE may look at them and that's dangerous. If you're looking for RDM to deal more DPS, then you should target more specific reasons why RDM is doing lower damage: raise.

Let's see I'm none of those things, so I guess your logic is flawed, not surprised though. RDM is objectively harder than each phys ranged and SMN to play. Hence why it shouldn't be at the problem. Raising is already taxed, by a loss of what equates to over 400 potency each time, enough is enough

[Aikaal]

Let's see I'm none of those things, so I guess your logic is flawed, not surprised though. RDM is objectively harder than each phys ranged and SMN to play. Hence why it shouldn't be at the problem. Raising is already taxed, by a loss of what equates to over 400 potency each time, enough is enough

Take it with a grain of salt but https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/.../firemage%20li

Only RDM clears on savage for Stormblood, Shadowbringers and Endwalker. You definitely fit RDM one trick player. That also falls down that you have no knowledge for other jobs. You only want RDM to be good over others. You have opinions and you're biased which mean you are not contributing to the balance issues we're facing. It does suck your one job you play isn't performing right now but that doesn't give you the right to trick others to believe other jobs deserve worse.

Feel free to look at mine. https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/...0leyma#zone=44

Posted it on the previous content to show I logged on all 3 caster DPS. You can check I don't have TEA clear but I did clear DSR on RDM. I've also played Tank during ShB and I was a main melee DPS in Stormblood.

As an edit; I would point any of those out if you weren't so stubborn into believe that you're right when you clearly lack the basic knowledge. You have a lot of hot takes but nothing to back them up.

[FireMage]

Take it with a grain of salt but https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/.../firemage%20li

Only RDM clears on savage for Stormblood, Shadowbringers and Endwalker. You definitely fit RDM one trick player. That also falls down that you have no knowledge for other jobs. You only want RDM to be good over others. You have opinions and you're biased which mean you are not contributing to the balance issues we're facing. It does suck your one job you play isn't performing right now but that doesn't give you the right to trick others to believe other jobs deserve worse.

Feel free to look at mine. https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/...0leyma#zone=44

Posted it on the previous content to show I logged on all 3 caster DPS. You can check I don't have TEA clear but I did clear DSR on RDM. I've also played Tank during ShB and I was a main melee DPS in Stormblood.

As an edit; I would point any of those out if you weren't so stubborn into believe that you're right when you clearly lack the basic knowledge. You have a lot of hot takes but nothing to back them up.

Might wish to do a bigger deep dive and see my tank and healer parses when helping out others. Try again. Also ad hominem, has no actual impact on balance knowledge. You are dismissed

[CKNovel]

Snip for sake of lisibility

The same logic as before: Every job is braindead until your start to optimize the most ridiculous gain.
This is the only depth of the game and the only aspect that requires knowledge of the game when it comes to jobs.
You brought data and solid argument and have nothing more to prove, I believe everyone agrees with you.

Thought I offer you a friendly advice:
Don't make the same mistake as me and waste energy into convincing a biased individual that their own job is conveniently harder than the others.
You're simply facing someone who's jealous of your performance and clears, trying to lower you on their own level to beat you.

[Aikaal]

Might wish to do a bigger deep dive and see my tank and healer parses when helping out others. Try again. Also ad hominem, has no actual impact on balance knowledge. You are dismissed

With what, your 1 clear of each fight on SAG on the previous tier and you're one clear on the first 2 fights on WHM suddenly makes you an expert at saying MCH and SMN should do lower DPS than RDM and RDM should be in the middle?

Or is it the one Eden's Prime / Eden's Promise clear you got on PLD the last expansion that makes you an expert?

Do you know why I'm confident when I say it's easy mode on melee in Endwalker? I played Melee in Stormblood. A significant amount of melee. Do you know why I'm not making many claims on tanks and healers? I certainly have WHM clears https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/...Global&zone=44 but it isn't because I played it seriously. Spamming Glare isn't exactly difficult and doesn't make me a good healer.

Again, you should stick with what you know because should someone manage to completely destroy any credibility you have (which just happened), people will no longer take you seriously. You can still post just fine but you should make a RDM focused thread and stick to it.

The same logic as before: Every job is braindead until your start to optimize the most ridiculous gain.
This is the only depth of the game and the only aspect that requires knowledge of the game when it comes to jobs.
You brought data and solid argument and have nothing more to prove, I believe everyone agrees with you.

Thought I offer you a friendly advice:
Don't make the same mistake as me and waste energy into convincing a biased individual that their own job is conveniently harder than the others.
You're simply facing someone who's jealous of your performance and clears, trying to lower you on their own level to beat you.

Oh, no worries, I saw all the posts so I opted to show everyone why he shouldn't be consider x__x that's the best option at this point.

[FireMage]

Again, you should stick with what you know

And what I know is balance. Someone doesn't even need to touch XIV to be able to read and understand parse data, t-cup

[Mithron]

And what I know is balance. Someone doesn't even need to touch XIV to be able to read and understand parse data, t-cup

You still say MCH should be at the bottom and job difficulty dictates balance, so no you clearly don't, but back to ignoring you outside others beating you at your own logical fallacies lmao