Are positionals a outdated thing?

[Raoabolic]

#BringBackAllThePositionals #MakeFFXIVOnlineHardAgain

I'm kidding of course, but please bring back all the positionals. <3

You are kidding but MANY are asking for other classes to get the healer treatment. I do wonder if it's just salty healers looking to watch the world burn, that's my job! :^(

[Schan]

I was watching Xenosys and I been agreeing in that positionals are at this point just dumb and a archaic system. Should they just finally get rid of positionals once and for all?

i personally quite enjoy positionals and it's the reason why i generally prefer melees over any other job. with that dynamic of positionals gone i find boss fights to be extremely dull but that's just my personal opinion. I understand positionals are a somewhat divisive subject.

With that said why are you listening to someone who basically has their whole persona centered on being a tank in regards to something that only affects melee DPS???

[Raoabolic]

With that said why are you listening to someone who basically has their whole persona centered on being a tank in regards to something that only affects melee DPS???

I would laugh if all of this was caused by a melee dps telling him to "pls stop spinning the boss. " in a fight. lol

[AmiableApkallu]

In 1.0 the positional requirements were on the first skills of a combo not the last and they carried impact as a result. Hitting a positional allowed you to combo. Missing a positional wouldn't.

Hell even tanks had them and it was pretty satisfying to successfully find that right moment to duck behind a boss land a hit to open up a higher damage combo and get back in front of the boss without turning it and ruining everyone else's combos. That's real reward, real impact.

That sounds like the sort of thing I wish was more prevalent in this game's job and combat design: features that let you know that you messed something up.

My sense of accomplishment is diminished when I don't know what failure feels like.

[Iyrnthota]

i personally quite enjoy positionals and it's the reason why i generally prefer melees over any other job. with that dynamic of positionals gone i find boss fights to be extremely dull but that's just my personal opinion. I understand positionals are a somewhat divisive subject.

With that said why are you listening to someone who basically has their whole persona centered on being a tank in regards to something that only affects melee DPS???

IIRC, his point was that positionals harm boss design potential. By having to take into account positionals, the devs are restricted in how they design fights.

[Schan]

IIRC, his point was that positionals harm boss design potential. By having to take into account positionals, the devs are restricted in how they design fights.

Hmm... well from what I have experienced from the game I disagree with that statement. Regardless of positionals the devs have always have to have melees (or melee uptime if you want to be fancy) in mind wether they are tanks or melee dps.

If the devs feel like a boss has a lot of movement / mechanics that deny positionals they have chosen to disable positionals anyway. The choice is always there. Some people just want it to be a permanent thing.

As a tank i would be more annoyed if they started designing more bosses that yeets itself across the field every 2 seconds. As a dps I can just go play ranged if it's that annoying. And a boss that yeets itself every 2 seconds does not necessarily mean that it has good design.

the bottom line i am trying to get at is... it's not positionals that limit boss design. it would "arguably" be the existence of melees. If your game has melees then you have to have consider them in boss encounters. There is a reason as to why in some games being ranged is "OP".

Like in most things, there needs to be a balance and consideration for all the jobs you have in your game.

[Iyrnthota]

Hmm... well from what I have experienced from the game I disagree with that statement. Regardless of positionals the devs have always have to have melees (or melee uptime if you want to be fancy) in mind wether they are tanks or melee dps.

If the devs feel like a boss has a lot of movement / mechanics that deny positionals they have chosen to disable positionals anyway. The choice is always there. Some people just want it to be a permanent thing.

As a tank i would be more annoyed if they started designing more bosses that yeets itself across the field every 2 seconds. As a dps I can just go play ranged if it's that annoying. And a boss that yeets itself every 2 seconds does not necessarily mean that it has good design.

the bottom line i am trying to get at is... it's not positionals that limit boss design. it would "arguably" be the existence of melees. If your game has melees then you have to have consider them in boss encounters. There is a reason as to why in some games being ranged is "OP".

I wouldn't say I personally have enough experience to comment intelligently on it, but I can see his point of view.
There two sides of the coin, as I understand it.
The boss encounter is designed in such a way that melee's can make decent use of their positionals, in which case they are restricted in encounter design.
That or they ignore them entirely, in which case, why have positionals in the first place.

[Schan]

I wouldn't say I personally have enough experience to comment intelligently on it, but I can see his point of view.
There two sides of the coin, as I understand it.
The boss encounter is designed in such a way that melee's can make decent use of their positionals, in which case they are restricted in encounter design.
That or they ignore them entirely, in which case, why have positionals in the first place.

I think I understand what you are saying but I have a few questions and a what if:
Why is there this dicotomy of "if fight have positionals then it's limiting the design"?

I'm not a dev and I can't speak for them but we don't know where in the development process considerations for positionals come in but:

What if they design the fight they want, tune it for difficulty (which i would argue is the biggest limiter for fight designs) and at the end they test out for positionals. If positionals are doable they keep the positionals ring. IF they struggle to do positionals then they just ask the devs to implement the no positionals ring on that boss and call it day.

Why do things have to be one or the other?

I'm personally quite happy with the middle ground that we have. some fights have positionals, some fights have no positionals. Everyone wins sometimes instead of some winning all the time.

[Bsrking5]

Yes
/10 characters

[Broken_Wind]

I don't think they are outdated at all, although it shouldnt be a melee requirement either

I found Monk post greased lightning but pre EW to be the most fun class on controller. It wasnt particularly complex, but it was constant motion and very fluid. I think EW Monk is a major leap backwards in terms of fun, but obviously everyone is different
I think its a great tradeoff to have some classes have less complexity but require more movement.

And I think it does make sense from a class perspective for MNK to be positional based, fist user weaving around opponent to find the best opening

I think it makes sense for NIN to have some rear positionals, but i dont think it makes sense thematically for DRG and SAM