PvP healers ARE healers. Healing in PvP is literally the healer definition in MOBA games. You have to stop looking at PvP the same way as PvE because PvP is fighting against real players, not scripted monsters that repeat the same mechanics.
Originally Posted by Renathras
The big key difference between healing in PvE and healing in PvP is that PvE is ridiculously lenient in what mistakes players make against an scripted enemy, as opposed to PvP - which is more strictly based on team effort with real players and unique gameplay identity. Each mistake in PvP has a huge cost to overall team performance, and this is what separates players from being good and bad in ranked gameplay. Instead of extending player's "mistakes" forever until the next burst window (old PvP Cure spam + med kits), the new PvP shortens these skirmishes by removing this nonsensical delay on every role (recuperation now costs MP and has limited uses, healers have more burst healing potential) and instead make healing more impactful on timing and usage, resulting in shorter Crystalline Conflict matches and faster gameplay for everyone to enjoy.
- If everyone on PvP is doing well (including the other team), the impact of your healing is absolutely noticeable because you'd be able to draw out fights long enough to start pushing the crystal when the enemy has to start retreating due to the difference of self-sustain made up by having a healer.
- If everyone on PvP is doing decent, the impact of your healing becomes relatively noticeable because your team would be coming out on top of skirmishes.
- If your team is doing poorly compared to the other team, the healing would be just enough to offset the enemy team's damage comparatively, but won't seem "noticeable" besides to the healer.
- If your team is doing absolutely terrible (not bothering to use recuperation), then no amount of healing in Old PVP (med kits replacing recuperation) and the new PVP will save them.
This is why PvP healing gets a dramatic impact based on how well and how badly the team is performing when healers are using them effectively. This is what makes PvP GOOD by design. Healers are there to tilt the scales, but in a teamfight between players, they are not the only caveat that determines whether the team wins or fails. Teamwork and team coordination is still the main key factor to winning in PvP.
The reason why old PVP was bad is because it literally treated your enemies as scripted mobs with the same mechanics (A.K.A PVE mechanics). All that damage can just be healed through and ignored. DPS is basically useless outside of coordinating in a burst window because of the ridiculous amount of healing that healers can throw at everyone.
The reason why this gameplay works is because short of removing all abilities that are redundant in PvP when everyone is playing properly, you're left with a very small subset of abilities that only healing can cover and make up the difference. This frees up healers to also gain back their old "support-oriented" gameplay, except the support-oriented gameplay is not all just damage % modifiers anymore. We get back some crowd-control abilities and At least in PvP, healers all function uniquely. No one healer is a carbon copy of another and requires a completely different mindset to play another. This is completely opposite to PvE healing, because you have so much excess healing skills + 2 button DPS skills that each healer fundamentally functions the same in the vast majority of content.
Case in point:
Have you seen how effective a good SCH LB works? It removes debuffs (saving 1 purify usage) and doubles as an HP extender. An absolute burst defense skill. Especially in Frontlines. Good SCHs can directly mitigate the effect of multiple Bahamuts and give everyone enough time to recuperate and survive.
WHM LB is a gamechanger because of how you can stun the enemy team while increasing the damage/healing output of your team. Out of the 4 healers, this one is the most offensive oriented and simplistic to use.
AST LB directly applies a 30% damage mitigation buff, reducing all burst attacks on any player for a set duration. Combined with their Macrocosmos + their Ewer Draw, it directly improves the state of their healing and survival without being a carbon copy of WHM or SCH by maximizing the effectiveness on a singular AoE delayed heal while bolstering each player's potential to heal to damage on their own accord.
SGE LB makes it so the team take 0 damage if the enemy tries to attack while you are inside your LB. If they walk in to fight, they have to take a huge DoT Debuff, making it very advantageous for your team. It's not overpowered either due to the long charge time and limited space to utilize it. A good team can directly push the crystal far, win skirmishes, and even secure the game with it. A bad team will not use it effectively and end up wasting the game-changing skill.
Plus, unlike PvE, no role is 'forced' or required in PvP. There is no strict composition of 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS. It's more balanced so that everyone have a form of limited self-sustain, but no role is "required" in a team - instead they're just a role with a unique playstyle & function like every other job.
Meanwhile, PvE healers... you have the tank directly do your job for you and act as the second healer. PLD can self heal themselves in Endwalker. WAR can straight up start ignoring the healer near the end of Heavensward and start healing the party by Shadowbringers. Teamwork only exists to handle mechanics and align buff windows. That's literally it. There's no actual coordination or strategy to PvE gameplay anymore. No support mechanics other than a % damage increase or a % mitigation buff to survive a fatal hit. The one good thing about healers in Endwalker is how SCH gained Expedience and AST gained Macrocosmos, making them stand more unique in toolkit.... assuming you ever need it when your tanks can handle all the mitigation and healing for you in most content.
Translating PvP healers to PvE healers does not necessarily force all healing to be removed because both content plays differently. PvE can still accommodate plenty of healing skills. However, the same exact 2 button DPS rotation that literally exists with each healer from level 4 to 90 needs to go.
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06-27-2022 05:50 PM #1Player
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06-27-2022 07:27 PM #2Player
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I don't play MOBAs for a number of reasons, that's one - there are no real healers in MOBAs, just support focused DPSers. Besides, the most comparable game to FFXIV is probably WoW, and healers in WoW were not like MOBA healers, either.
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
I hate Crystaline Conflict type content. Haven't even qued for it. I hate arena PvP and always have. I'll play Battlegrounds/Frontlines kind of stuff, though, but arena PvP is uninspired garbage and always has been. It's just...not fun. So I hate to break it to you, but any discussion focusing on CC isn't going to win me over.
And I will contest you on the point of "damage being ignored" in old PvP. If you ignored damage, people died. The difference was you could do a lot more to keep people alive. Now, you can't. You get 2 Cure 2s (and that's if you're playing WHM - none of the other healers can come close to that), then they die. Especially if they're chain CCed (crowd control) because Purify and Guard don't work like they're supposed to and there are no diminishing returns on CC for god only knows what reason (even PvE enemies build up immunity to Holy's Stun) and can't use Recuperate because they're in permanent stun lock from 100% -> 0% and there's literally nothing you can do about it after casting Cure 2 twice and an Aquaveil that isn't going to keep them alive, either. Cure 3 once if you also fling yourself into the enemy team so that you, too, can die right after they're done with your teammate. And that's when you aren't all instantly dead anyway from a wave of Bahamuts, of course.
Healers shouldn't be able to keep a person alive while they're being beaten on by 20 enemies, but that was never true to begin with. In the current game, you can't even keep someone alive who's being beaten on by 2. The only solution is to try to blow a bunch of burst like you're some DPSer cracked up on 2 min burst CDs and hope you can kill one of the enemies so your ally can get out of the stunlock and MAYBE do enough damage to the other before dying so you can at least finish them off and your team come out even in the exchange.
That's not gameplay "works", that's a garbage system that's annoying and NOT healing.
I've played SCH in Frontlines. No, Seraph cannot negate 5x Bahamuts. Believe me, I've tried.
Hell, SGE's LB sounds amazing on paper, but there are quite a few things that go through it (including LBs, it seems), and it has the long 2 min CD, making it far less useful than it seems like it should be. Also, I've yet to see the "huge DoT" actually kill anyone.
WHM is great on paper, but the number of times I've stunned an enemy (already below 50% health) only for my team to let them get away into the safety of their defensive line is ridiculous. Especially if THEIR Purify/Guard happens to actually WORK (which is totally hit and miss in PvP right now) and completely negate the Stun anyway.
No role being required is fine. But healers are not healers in PvP, no matter how much spin you want to put on it.
As to your discussion about coordination, I guess this largely depends on what content you play. Savages require coordination. And people who don't have Statics (and there are a lot of us) don't necessarily have reliable voice comms and communication, so we need tools that are plug and play. The game's mechanics are too fast paced for most people to type out strategies and converse in combat with chat boxes like you could do in, say, EverQuest. And many players already accuse FFXIV's gameplay of being slow and "boring" as it is, so that would never go over well. That's why "Teamwork" doesn't exist there.
...but having played a ton of Frontlines - enough to get my rare horse mount, and I don't mean the Garo ones - there is VERY rarely "teamwork" and "coordination" in FFXIV's PvP. "coordination or strategy" don't exist outside of sometimes one person calling things and maybe 30% of the party actually listening.
I do love Expedience, though. Nice to see a kind of more out of the box solution to more support focus, even if slight, that isn't just a damage buff.
And it's funny you hyp up healers in PvP over PvE...except in the ONE way they're more or less the same: PvP healers still largely have 2 button DPS "rotations". Indeed, WHM has no DoT, so when Misery and Seraph Strike are on CD, it's literally JUST Glare spam with no option. At least in PvE, you have the options of using a Lily heal for a future Misery or using Dia as a slight damage increase if you have literally nothing else to hit other than Glare and have to move. PvP has JUST Glare.
So the one thing you say "needs to go" is the one thing that PvP is arguably worse about than PvE...(0)Last edited by Renathras; 06-27-2022 at 07:28 PM. Reason: EDIT for space
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06-27-2022 10:12 PM #3Player
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Please do note that the moment you say you never tried Crystalline Conflict, you immediately discredit yourself for being disingenuous about making statements on PvP without actually playing it. Making statements about Frontlines is fine, but Crystalline Conflict is a small Skirmish between 5 coordinated players vs. 5 coordinated players and PvP balance patches are revolving around Crystalline Conflict. It's not a huge mess that Frontlines is, especially since Frontlines will be getting balance patches soon.
Originally Posted by Renathras
Please read what I wrote carefully. I said "All that damage can just be healed through and ignored. DPS is basically useless outside of coordinating in a burst window because of the ridiculous amount of healing that healers can throw at everyone."
Originally Posted by Renathras
In other words, damage is "non-threatening" or "non-lethal" in the sense that the damage can never exceed your maximum healing output to the point where it causes your ally to immediately die. This is the PvE mentality of spamming a healing spell to keep someone alive through multiple enemy mobs in a dungeon pull. Even if the damage exceeded a healer's healing, the medical kits were there to cover for the remaining damage. In other words, Old PVP meant healers were basically just there to spam Cure / Cure II while waiting for the next burst window. The next burst window is what actually determines whether the player will die.
And Again... you're bringing up the problem of a lack of healing by using Frontlines as your excuse to cover 8 players against 24+ enemies. This is in the situation of 5v5 (Crystalline Conflict) because this is what the healer toolkit is tuned to. It's not as if you have 2 healers guaranteed for each party, so it's imperative to pay attention to yourself first and foremost as each job has their own survival built-in to their toolkit.
Most players don't actually realize this but... if you put yourself in a spot where you CAN be Crowd-Control chained by 5 players and you DIDN'T guard for this eventuality ahead of time, then you made a HUGE mistake. That's a costly [positioning] mistake in Crystal tier if I ever seen one, and one that would set your team back real fast. Again... new PvP removes the "fluff" that is waiting for the burst window. Instead, it makes every moment in combat become a variable burst window because of the limited recuperation charges.
So yes... a healer with 2 charges should be easily able to make up for a player's mistake, unless the mistake is a fatal one. Being Crowd Controlled for so long to the point where they cannot survive with a healer on them in a 5v5 setting meant they were already dead from the getgo - same situation with old PVP.
Are you using WHM's Limit Break nearby with your allies near the enemy (5 to 10 yalms), or are you standing 25 to 40 yalms away from the enemy with everyone far away from them? Because the former will guarantee a kill or put your team to your advantage while the latter.... wastes your limit break for no reason? If they're able to retreat to their defensive line, then they must have plenty of time to escape, which meant they were in no danger in the first place. I've usually am able to secure a kill with WHM Limit break if they're under 50% by myself as a White Mage... Chances are that you either hit that person while they're guarded (wasting your Limit Break) or your team is focused on something else. That's nothing inherently wrong with White Mage's Limit break, so it's a team coordination issue on your end.
Originally Posted by Renathras
I don't know how to break this to you... but at least in the content of Frontlines -- because there exists a semblance of balance in Crystalline Conflict as Scholar is the anti-thesis of Summoner's Bahamut. Seraph is not supposed to negate 5 players worth of Limit Breaks with 1 Limit Break. That would make Scholars overpowered. You can, however, block up to 2 Bahamut Limit breaks with Scholar's toolkit alone. This is because Scholar not only can apply a party-wide shield, it can also strengthen their party-wide shield with Expedience and double that shield with Seraph + full Excogitations and debuff the enemy with a 10% damage reduction penalty. Blocking 2 Bahamuts is the limit of Scholar's LB, which then falls to the party to spam recuperate when they were hit. You can block up to 3 if you use the Scholar's entire kit defensively. This is under the condition that everyone is in the same Battle High.
Originally Posted by Renathras
I've played SCH in Frontlines. No, Seraph cannot negate 5x Bahamuts. Believe me, I've tried. Hell, SGE's LB sounds amazing on paper, but there are quite a few things that go through it (including LBs, it seems), and it has the long 2 min CD, making it far less useful than it seems like it should be. Also, I've yet to see the "huge DoT" actually kill anyone.
The amazing thing about Scholar is that if you play it right, it's not difficult to secure kills and gain a lot of Battle High because Scholar's DoTs are meant to pressure the enemy - whether it is to lower their HP for your team to secure a kill or to lower their HP during combat when the enemy is pre-occupied with something else (ex: Attacking Crystal/capturing point/defending against other enemies). I've gotten a decent number of kills with Scholar using this strategy purely through DoTs. Likewise, I've been biolysis'd before when in combat and disengaged ... only to realize I had no more mana for recuperation and directly died to a Scholar DoT before I got my elixir out. This is actually what Scholars excel the most at, so it's not just me who uses this strategy.
So uh... yeah... that's a problem on your end, if you aren't able to do well with Scholar on Frontlines.... because Scholar actually preforms much better on Frontlines due to how their gameplay works. I can confirm as I've consistently gained max Battle High from it. So uhm... sorry, you just outed yourself for not knowing how to effectively perform well on Scholar.
Also, no, Sage Limit Break does not allow other Limit Breaks or attacks to go through it randomly. It nullifies all damage - including Limit Breaks. It can even block a Ninja's Limit Break when an ally is under 50% HP. This is under the condition that the opponent does not have lype and you are under the buff Mesotes. Sage's Limit Break is only effective to block all damage when no one is in range of their Limit Break. This is what makes Sage's Limit Break powerful enough to block 5x Bahamut. For Dragoon's Limit Break, if the Dragoon attacked but did not get the lype debuff the moment your party is in attacked in the Sage Mesotes circle, then even a Dragoon's Limit break can be blocked.
If you have issues with using Sage's Limit break, there's a high chance you have placed the Limit Break too late or the opponent decided to take the lype DoT to do damage to your team.
PvP White Mage skills to press for damaging enemies:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Afflatus Misery - 15 seconds
Seraph Strike - 20 seconds
Miracle of Nature - CC - 25 seconds
Glare
Afflatus Purgation - 60 seconds (Limit Break)
PvP Scholar skills to press for damaging enemies:
Expedient (Doubling as an enhancement) - 30 seconds
Biolysis - 15 seconds
Deployment Tactics (Doubling as an enhancement to spread DoT/Shield) - 15 seconds
Broil
Mummification - 20 seconds
PvP Astrologian skills to press for damaging enemies:
Macrocosmos - 30 seconds
Fall Malefic
Fall Malefic Double cast (speed up double cast) - 7.5 to 15 seconds
Gravity II - 15 seconds
Gravity II Double cast - 15 seconds
Draw -> The Balance / The Spire - 20 seconds
PvP Sage skills to press for damaging enemies:
Dosis III
Phlegma III - 15 seconds
Pneuma - 30 seconds
Eukrasia -> Eukrasian Dosis III - 15 seconds
Toxikon - 15 seconds
Toxikon II - whenever Eukrasian Diagnosis breaks
Yes, White mage is the most simplistic healer out of the 4. It doesn't mean the healers as a whole have less damaging abilities because all their skills are now set up in such a way that they either synergize with each other or interact uniquely. Plus, all these skills are on a fairly low cooldown (30 seconds on average), so they come up often enough in the rotation to the point where your main attack skill is not as noticeable. For the PvE side, these skills have an upwards to 120 second cooldown, so each use of Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis in PvE is much more magnified. It's really not the same.(10)
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06-28-2022 12:15 AM #4Player
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It isn't "spin" if you won't use your skills - no I don' t mean using Seraph on 5 Bahamuts, but your LB will pick off a SMN and heal and it builds quickly. Miracle a priority target that is one of your main objectives as a WHM and it is up again quickly. Seraph when you can - but no, you call that a "suicide mission'
Originally Posted by Renathras
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