[Petition] Have Naoki Yoshida Play Healer and take off the DPS Gloves for a year.

[Renathras]

I cannot fathom how it could be "more engaging" without being "harder". There's no way to make it "more engaging" that WOULDN'T make it harder. While we can quibble about HOW MUCH harder, adding a second DoT to manage makes it harder (to contribute optimal DPS). Adding a second casting combo attack of some kind makes it harder. Making heals weaker so that GCD heals must be used more often makes it harder. There is no way to "make it more engaging" that doesn't make it "harder" at the same time. So let's start by setting that issue to bed. Any meaningful discussion must start with us agreeing on basic facts. And making a "more engaging" DPS kit, by definition, makes a harder DPS kit. WAR's kit is "more engaging" than WHM's, and is HARDER. You can argue it's negligibly harder, but it's definitely more involved to contribute optimal DPS.

That said, this is why my personal ideal is to make one healer from each type (pure and barrier) harder while leaving the other alone. This way, healers that want a "more engaging" healer can play those ones. They will still do the same overall rdps, so you get no benefit at all other than "not being bored". You would pick them entirely because you want to be pushed harder, and the ones left alone would be for people that enjoy healing now. Everyone could clear the content and people that don't want a "more engaging" rotation could continue playing as they do now and doing just as much damage as those of you that want to be more "engaged". For example, suppose we leave WHM and SGE as they are now and give AST a 1-2-3 rotation and SCH 3-5 DoTs and Fester/Bane. You will do no more damage - let me make sure I'm making that absolutely clear - and they will be more involved in order for you to even manage to pull the same damage as a WHM spamming Glare. But that IS what you want, right?

And it would also help your case if you didn't conflate two things: Are you upset about healers being "boring" or Hrothgar hair styles? Pick a lane.

That said: It's always a good idea for players to try out different things. I have no idea Yoshi P's character name, so I don't know if he's leveled other Jobs or not, but given the type of person and gamer he seems to be, it's very likely he does play healer sometimes as well and isn't just 100% BLM all the time. But we'd have to verify that somehow.

EDIT:

Simple solution; gut healers like they have been in PVP and give every job its own self sustain, then redesign healers so they are actually green dps.

Everyone wins.

My god, you can't believe this, can you?

Many people love healing as it is right now. They're part of EVERYONE, and they would most definitely not win. I hate healers in PvP other than WHM, and barely that, because I have no heals I can actually use. The CD on Cure is painful for a person that main heals. There are no healers in PvP and I hate it. The only Job I can even somewhat stand to play is WHM because it has some more healing than the others, but barely, and it requires you blitzing into melee (and often certain death in Frontlines) just to use Cure 3. Your functional Medica 2 comes from using LB. It's totally stupid. It's a garbage system. The PvP rework overall is okay, but what they did to healers was brutal. There's barely any HEALING in PvP now, and that sucks arse.

They did great on tanking and damage dealers in PvP - because the Devs clearly love Tanks and DPS but hate Healers - but they did Healers super dirty in PvP. Every single healer has to be a melee warrior and none of them have distance openers, and SCH doesn't even have a gap CLOSER to get into melee in the first place. I can't see why anyone thinks healing in PvP now is enjoyable. It's passable on WHM but total garbage otherwise. If that came to PvE, I'd either quit healing or quit the game outright.

You people that want and love that aren't healers. You're damage dealers in healers' clothing.

As a friendly reminder to people who say "Go play DPS" or "Go play Tank", try a healer yourself and tell us how you feel pressing 1 button when there is abso-frickin-lutely buttocks to do when your WAR is holding down the fort all by himself with Bloodwhetting and his sustain.

I not only TRY healer, I main healer. I play all healers other than AST (because I genuinely just dislike the Card mechanic and it's too busy/"engaging" overall), and love how WHM and SGE work right now. SCH is honestly too much. I think it needs about 3 less buttons overall, drop Energy Drain so its healing isn't fighting damage, and delete Dissipation, the single most terrible/bad ability in the entire history of the game.

You want to play DPS. That's the problem. Many people do not. We want to play Healers, and don't want you turning our Healers into DPS. You have 11 DPS Jobs in this game to play. 15 if you add Tanks. And two of the Healers, SCH and AST, are already very busy and involved. You have PLENTY of options without ruining Healers for the rest of us.

If you were talking about 1 or 2 of the Healers, as I said above, and doing identical DPS just putting in all that extra effort you WANT to put in, that'd be fine. But that's not what you want. You want to ruin Healers for people that love them right now. And that's unacceptable.

I think part of the problem is that the average player just doesn't realise how bad the healing situation is. Bring it to their attention. Play a conjurer in lategame content. You know, that might actually be kind of fun, since you'll be pressing GCDs other than glare...

It's funny you mentioned this, did a ZodEx with no Job stones. It actually is possible (though somewhat close), and it was interesting having to lean so heavily on GCD heals again instead of having oGCDs coming out the wazoo that do all the healing for you.

[ASkellington]

snip

And there is absolutely NOTHING for veteran healers to get better at on ANY healer and no, I am sorry but you cannot sit here and tell me having 1 dot and 1 nuke from lv4-90 is ok on ANY class. That is abysmal design.

Further, healers in previous expansion HAD more support and dps tools and they were removed. Your argument falls flat when the people who liked those original designs have nothing to be compensated. And yes, THAT INCLUDES WHITE MAGE.

No I don't want to play DPS as a healer, stop that train right there. What I want is to actually juggle between doing DPS, SUPPORT, and HEALING. Not even AST does that since its cards are flavorless which the devs themselves removed along with Nocturnal Sect.

You wanna know why PvP healers are more liked than PvE? Because they feel different from one another. SCH has Bane back and spreads its DoTs. AST may only have 3 of its cards back, but they're there, they're impactful and they're DIVERSE. (which I'll sound like a broken record SE REMOVED FROM THEM IN PREVIOUS EXPANSIONS read: before Shb) SGE is the one healer I think is friggin atrocious in PvP because its only heal is Kardia. And WHM? WHM feels more in line to a true healer in PvP with actually having heals.

That is what people like about PvP healers and y'know what? Those things I bolded from SCH and AST yeah we want them back and have been begging for them to come back since SHB. WHM lost Aero... what 3? For no reason. WHM also lost Stoneskin? for no reason. They can easily add those back to WHM and it would do NOTHING to current gameplay.


We're not just asking for wildly new things, we're also asking for the things we lost because we found those fun and they didn't need to be removed to begin with.

You say it isn't fair to the people who like the way healing is now, but how is it fair for you to say that when the healers you have NOW are the result of the HEALERS OF THE PAST LOSING THINGS?

So while I am in agreement it isn't fair to people who like healers now, it also isn't fair to people who liked how healers were in the past either. And personally, THOSE are the people SE SHOULD HAVE CATERED TO TO BEGIN WITH AND DIDN'T.

[Sebazy]

Many people love healing as it is right now.

And yet solo healer queues in Duty Finder have never been so consistently instant in the manner that they are now.

Why is that?

[Renathras]

And yet solo healer queues in Duty Finder have never been so consistently instant in the manner that they are now.

Why is that?

What? o.O

I'm not sure what game you played, but solo healer ques were consistent for all of ShB and SB for me. I've never had to wait more than 5 mins to get into ANYTHING as a healer that I can recall, and generally the window pops for me as soon as I hit the que button. It's done this consistently for...basically 8 years. Even when I was leveling CNJ into WHM back in 2.2 when I started player, healer ques were pretty consistent. The main difference is that there are more tanks now than there used to be owing to the popularity of the role increasing over time, so you get instant ques on both these days - when I que as a tank, I also consistently get the window popping immediately other than for 24 mans because they only need 3 tanks total.

"Why is that?" It's ALWAYS been this way. The only time it WASN'T this way was back when tanks were super underrepresented vs healers. And in that case tank ques were instant while healer ones would be 30 sec to 2 mins. If your argument was really true, Healer ques would be instant while tanks would be waiting 20 sec to 2 mins in que. Jump on a tank right now and que any content other than 24 mans. You'll get an instant que.

So all you're seeing is that tank and healer numbers are about equal now - and that's because tank numbers have increased as a percentage of the population - not that there's a dearth of healers.

EDIT:

As to this...

And there is absolutely NOTHING for veteran healers to get better at on ANY healer and no, I am sorry but you cannot sit here and tell me having 1 dot and 1 nuke from lv4-90 is ok on ANY class. That is abysmal design.

When you calm a bit from the hyperbole...

Further, healers in previous expansion HAD more support and dps tools and they were removed. Your argument falls flat when the people who liked those original designs have nothing to be compensated. And yes, THAT INCLUDES WHITE MAGE.

Oh really?

Tell me, what "more support and dps tools" did WHM have in SB? They had realistically two more DoTs, one less combo finisher nuke (Misery), two less GCD heals, one less oGCD heal, and no additional support tools than they have today. So why are you openly lying here? On net, they had two less heals and one more DPS button.

No I don't want to play DPS as a healer

Yes, you do. You just can't be honest about it.

What I want is to actually [I][B][U]juggle between doing DPS, SUPPORT, and HEALING.

Yes, you want to be a DPS with party buffs that can throw heals here and there. You literally want RDM as a role in a game that has a rigid combat system that pretty strictly adheres to the trinity. The only Job in this game that is going to be what you want is RDM, and that was already stretching it.

Ranged physical is the designated "Support" role, and barely at that. RDM and PLD are the only vaguely capable healers that dabble in other roles. RDM and SMN are the only non-healers that have Raise support.

I'm not telling you how to play, but what you want is what RDM is, not what the Healer role is. What you want is a Job that does DPS, has party buffs, and can throw support heals at the party. There is no Job that will do this fully in a rigid trinity system. None.

If you want to lean on the "buffs as support", the only real option is AST. If you want to lean on the "juggle DPS", then the only real option is RDM and convince your party to 1 healer content and let you fill in the other healer slot.

What you're asking for just doesn't exist in FFXIV, and never has.

You wanna know why PvP healers are more liked than PvE?

As I pointed out in my prior post, they are NOT more universally liked than PvE. They are more liked by people that want to play a support DPS. They are somewhat DISliked by actual Healers. Actual Healers tolerate a few of them and like a few gimics like SCH having the ability to boost ally damage directly with Adlo (though this is just Chain Stratagem divorced from the 2 min PvE burst window)

If anything, the reason they're at all liked is because they aren't bound to a 2 minute window and are instead bound closer to 20 second micro-rotations, which is something that plagues all PvE, not just healers.

It's not "because they feel different from one another", because the PvE healers ALREADY feel different than one another unless you're oversimplifying to the point that you would argue WHM, WAR, and BLM all feel the same.

And WHM? WHM feels more in line to a true healer in PvP with actually having heals.

WHM BARELY feels like a healer in PvP because of the CD on Cure 2. And it's the ONLY healer in PvP that does. SCH is a buffer, not a healer, and SGE is a DPSer. AST is kind of a hybrid of the two. WHM WOULD feel like a healer in PvP if it actually had no CD on Cure 2. Even WHM, the most healy of the healers in PvP has a massive damage death laser for REASONS.

Stoneskin

Look, I LOVED using Stoneskin in ARR and HW, and absolutely loved Stoneskin 2 when it was added to the game...but I was told repeatedly I was a bad player for using it, and honestly, they were right to say so. Good players didn't use Stoneskin. That's why Stoneskin was removed. I'd love it if that WASN'T the case and it was treated more like Adlo, but that ship has long since sailed.

We're not just asking for wildly new things, we're also asking for the things we lost because we found those fun and they didn't need to be removed to begin with.

That'd be fine if you also knew when to leave alone, something you don't seem to have the capacity to do. For example, WHM has Misery now in place of Aero 3 (uses it half as often, but it fills the same general spot in our rotation, despite people thinking otherwise) and has an actual USABLE Stoneskin in the form of Divine Benison as an oGCD weave so players aren't told they're bads for using it.

Not everyone found those things you like fun, though, which is arguably why they were removed. While adding some back wouldn't necessarily be bad, some of them were removed for good reasons.

You say it isn't fair to the people who like the way healing is now, but how is it fair for you to say that when the healers you have NOW are the result of the HEALERS OF THE PAST LOSING THINGS?

I started playing in 2.2. I remember when Stoneskin 2 was added to the game. Many of the Healers NOW are also the healers of the past.

So while I am in agreement it isn't fair to people who like healers now, it also isn't fair to people who liked how healers were in the past either.

This is the ONE statement you said I agree with - which is why I keep saying we should take a blended approach where we leave some healers as they are now and change some to more reflect the old playstyles.

And personally, THOSE are the people SE SHOULD HAVE CATERED TO TO BEGIN WITH AND DIDN'T.

This I disagree with. Many people even back then didn't like healers, which is why there was a chronic healer SHORTAGE until ShB. That wasn't healthy for the game.

And, as noted above, we didn't have a magical time of support healers then, either.

But, again, this is why I'd personally agree with making SCH and AST or SGE and AST more akin to what you want while leaving the other two alone.

[ASkellington]

snip

Where in this post do you think I want to do dps numbers in comparison to actual DPS? Juggling dps/buffs/healing is what the healing role DOES in mmos. If you have a buff you keep it up on the party as often as you can. When there is a time that healing is required (usually unavoidable damage) you heal as much as needed and go back to casting a dps spell, literally how AST is played.

As for the rest of your post. RDM isn't a healer. I've played RDM. If anything you should be telling me to play BLU since it seems to have a similar design philosophy you and I agree on. Thing is, no. I'm not playing BLU when healers can be equally as fun as BLU healer.

You missed the entire point of my PvP mention. So I'll simplify it here: there are building blocks that healers like in their PvP variants that we want in PvE.

And as for your statement of "openly lying" at NO POINT did I say WHM had vast amount of support tools. I said "healers" as in IN GENERAL "had more support and dps options" and lost them. WHM losing a DoT and Stoneskin counts towards that broad statement, sorry if you disagree.

And personally I don't think Divine Bension is a better alternative to Stoneskin as the latter is CERTAINLY more flavorful.

As for your claim of my over simplification let me put it to you this way:

WHM/AST/SCH start with their 1 nuke 1 dot from lv4. SGE when you sink down doesn't get their DoT till 30, and they gain... Toxicon and Phlegma. <---dunno why they can have 2 extra buttons and other healers can't especially since there is no combo action.

Macrocosmos/Assize/Pnuema?/Earthly Star are not DPS abilities without also being tied to a heal which I do not count and we arguably shouldn't and Lord of Crowns is RNG.

What other DPS abilities exist for healers on a GCD? And yes I am ignoring AOEs.

I ask this because as a new player to FFXIV back in SHB I was expecting more. And I certainly feel it is dumb for me to spam Stone/Glare/Malefic/Broil for any solo duties where I play as my healing class. And as SE wants FFXIV to be a more SINGLE PLAYER EXPERIENCE for a new player starting out as CNJ that should be fix along with a slew of other issues I have with healers.

As for the "healers feel different" comment, no. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty sure. But AST shares too much with WHM and SGE shares too much with SCH for me to agree with you. The latter two I can LITERALLY arrange my bars near 1:1 and play just fine.

Of all the more unique abilities healers have there is Synastry which isn't really used outside of niche content and could be. Pepsis which I want to like, but SE doesn't want to play with for SGE. Haima (which again could be a fun healing style if it was spread to more abilities).

THAT is what I mean when healers play the same. Sub 50 AST is a straight up carbon copy of WHM for no reason as I've gone on record saying for AGES. In PvP it has effectively RDM's Quickcast for some of its abilities which is different to how WHM heals and that is what I want in PvE.

Do I want Doublecast in PvP? Hells no I hate it for my healing (I want the shield part first not the regen thank you very much) but do I want AST to be established as a HOT healer when you start at 30 instead of WHM but with cards? Yes.

[Semirhage]

Yes, you do. You just can't be honest about it.

I see you're still going around accusing people of not being "real healers" while pretending like you're not namecalling. Standard Sylphie Tactic every time. *eyeroll*

HeALeRs sHoULd HeAL onLy, if you don't think spamming boring buttons over and over and over again is fun you're not a REAL HEALER!

Yawn. It's been boring every time other Sylphies have claimed it, and it's still boring here.

[Liam_Harper]

I see you're still going around accusing people of not being "real healers" while pretending like you're not namecalling. Standard Sylphie Tactic every time. *eyeroll*

This is why they're so aggressive in their arguments.

It's a great life in the Sylphie imaginary bubble. You twiddle your thumbs half a fight and poke Medica II a bit for the other half and now you're a REAL HEALER. The elite. Not one of those filthy dps spamming halfbreeds, a pure blooded HEALER. By doing basically nothing and with no real practice you're a gift to any party and stand above the crowd. A credit to the role and true to your principles.

And here we are trying to pop that bubble with logic and drag them down from the illusionary throne into reality. And reality isn't pretty. How dare we.

[Nizzi]

They are more liked by people that want to play a support DPS. They are somewhat DISliked by actual Healers. Actual Healers tolerate a few of them

[Floortank]

I cannot fathom how it could be "more engaging" without being "harder". There's no way to make it "more engaging" that WOULDN'T make it harder.

You're taking a game design approach to your argument, and sadly wasting your time. Game design is holistic, one change is never just one change; any alteration requires accommodation at multiple levels. You can't get through to people who don't understand this.

[Sebazy]

You're taking a game design approach to your argument, and sadly wasting your time. Game design is holistic, one change is never just one change; any alteration requires accommodation at multiple levels. You can't get through to people who don't understand this.

So what would you propose be done to tackle this ever growing issue? As a fairly well acclaimed ex game dev myself, I can’t think of an alternative that isn’t going to need a bit of an across the board rethink of healing in general. I’ve not seen anything to suggest that this is something Yoshida’s team are willing to do.