[Petition] Have Naoki Yoshida Play Healer and take off the DPS Gloves for a year.

**Rilifane** · 06-28-2022 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Done.

All the "non-true" healers quit the role by play a dps job or another game completely. Leaving only cure 1 sylphies left to play the role.

Then players with your mentality can come to the forums to complain about how dungeons are taking too long to complete, and enrage checks are impossible because healers are not contributing dps.

I will make sure to add a /s next time.

**Liam_Harper** · 06-28-2022 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Semirhage

I see you're still going around accusing people of not being "real healers" while pretending like you're not namecalling. Standard Sylphie Tactic every time. *eyeroll*

This is why they're so aggressive in their arguments.

It's a great life in the Sylphie imaginary bubble. You twiddle your thumbs half a fight and poke Medica II a bit for the other half and now you're a REAL HEALER. The elite. Not one of those filthy dps spamming halfbreeds, a pure blooded HEALER. By doing basically nothing and with no real practice you're a gift to any party and stand above the crowd. A credit to the role and true to your principles.

And here we are trying to pop that bubble with logic and drag them down from the illusionary throne into reality. And reality isn't pretty. How dare we.

**AziraSyuren** · 06-28-2022 10:16 AM

A bit late on this, but I highly doubt that hiring more people would fix any of the issues with healer design in this game. This is a "direction of the game" issue, not an ideas issue.

**IDontPetLalas** · 06-28-2022 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

A bit late on this, but I highly doubt that hiring more people would fix any of the issues with healer design in this game. This is a "direction of the game" issue, not an ideas issue.

Indeed, because companies never change their "direction' as you call it. I do hope that you can detect the disbelief that I'm trying to communicate here?

In a successful company like SE, whether it is a technical design or creative design some decisions will be made at a higher level (i.e. than the project team), or be more difficult to reverse, but it is not that easy for an outside person to decide which are not going to ever be considered by a design team.

**Midareyukki** · 06-28-2022 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Indeed, because companies never change their "direction' as you call it. I do hope that you can detect the disbelief that I'm trying to communicate here?

In a successful company like SE, whether it is a technical design or creative design some decisions will be made at a higher level (i.e. than the project team), or be more difficult to reverse, but it is not that easy for an outside person to decide which are not going to ever be considered by a design team.

Just to add...
- Male Miqo'te
- Female Roegadyn
- Genderlocked gear
- Now people are asking for Genderlocked gear to be removed, and they're slowly working on it
- A Gunblade-wielding class
- A Scythe-wielding class
- GPose and its utilities
- FFXI-style Bard Performance
- Improvements to older or controversial content (Eureka and Blue Mage)
- VIERA AS A WHOLE
and much more

I understand where AziraSyuren is coming from. If people don't say anything about it, nothing changes. But while some stuff does appear to be more feasible than others, telling people "want a challenge, go do Ultimates" really is tone-deaf.

And far worse has been changed for far less.

**Renathras** · 06-28-2022 01:16 PM

God this is going to be long. Oh well, there are quotes with pictures so you can read reply and make what rebuttals you wish. Though try to actually address arguments, not make straw man caricatures nor ad hominem insults on the person. You people style yourselves as reasonable and rational: Time to act like it.

Originally Posted by Floortank

You're taking a game design approach to your argument, and sadly wasting your time. Game design is holistic, one change is never just one change; any alteration requires accommodation at multiple levels. You can't get through to people who don't understand this.

Basically, yeah. I think it's still worth presenting a counter-argument in this echo-chamber. This is more a bigger issue that I have in life as a whole - everyone proposes their ideals as all positive with no negatives. Even if one believes something is NET positive, there's nothing in life that has all benefits and no costs. Ignoring or saying the costs aren't there is just outright lying. In order to have an honest discussion and serious appraisal of things, we have to deal with the facts. And "it won't be harder, just more complex" is impossible.

Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

It isn't "spin" if you won't use your skills - no I don' t mean using Seraph on 5 Bahamuts, but your LB will pick off a SMN and heal and it builds quickly. Miracle a priority target that is one of your main objectives as a WHM and it is up again quickly. Seraph when you can - but no, you call that a "suicide mission'

I literally USE ALL MY SKILLS, even the ones that lead to my certain death. It's still spin. Healers in PvP are not Healers, they're support DPSers. Which is why most of you that are anti-PvE Healers love them, because you want to play support DPSers, not Healers. That's my point.

That said, I'd LOVE them to actually make a dedicated support role in the game. It wouldn't even really be that hard to flag NIN, BRD, DNC, and AST as "Support" to fill out that role in a 4 man party and have 1-2 of them standard in 8 mans and 24 mans (per party). I think that's what people really want, they just aren't sure how to ask for it and somehow feel people telling them this is an insult.

And no, WHM LB will not kill a SMN outright. Believe me, I've tried. The number of times I've hit a SMN with LB, AND Misery, AND Miracle to prevent them healing, AND Seraph to try and finish them off...and then they run off as I try to finish them with Glare, get 100% -> 0% within 5 seconds from their entire party jumping me (what with Seraph taking me into the middle of their line with the melee and tanks) and that my party seems to decide to focus on the PLD with invuln instead...let's just say that happens a LOT in Frontlines. All it takes is the SMN popping Guard right as my LB goes off and they basically can survive anything. WHM isn't MCH or SAM.

And yes, in Frontlines, Seraph is a suicide mission unless you're exclusively using it as the enemy line breaks or some enemy stupidly charged into YOUR party with something like Seraph Strike.

Originally Posted by Semirhage

I see you're still going around accusing people of not being "real healers" while pretending like you're not namecalling. Standard Sylphie Tactic every time. *eyeroll*

I've said before, and I think to you, and you refused to say what a "Sylphie" is. But at this point, it's as stupid to me as someone calling someone else a Nazi or other equal absurdities. If you have nothing constructive to add, maybe you shouldn't involve yourself in these discussions.

And I'm not "accusing" people. I'm saying "What you want is a support DPSer". Because what you want...is a support DPSer. I'm stating a fact based on what you and those supporting you have and consistently argue for. What you guys are arguing for is a DPS with support capabilities. Think like an Everquest Bard or Enchanter. You guys don't want to cast heals, and complain when anyone suggests that Healer gameplay should revolve around...uh...healing. On the other hand, you talk about buffing party members, DoTting and debuffing enemies, and spreading some incidental splash heals. That's what support DPS classes (in games that actually have Support as a developed and dedicated role) do.

I'm not accusing or insulting. If a person says "I want to be in melee but not have to deal with agro, positioning the boss, or using defensive CDs" and is playing a Tank, it's not some kind of slight to say "Maybe you'd be happier playing a Melee DPS instead of a Tank, since what you're asking for is what Melee DPS already are." The main difference here, of course, being that Support DPS don't really exist DIRECTLY in FFXIV, with the closest probably being RDM. Which, I'll note, was the number 1 most popular choice of Job that disgruntled healers in ShB went to playing - those that DID leave the healer role in ShB because they didn't like what it was changed into.

Again, this isn't some kind of insult.

HeALeRs sHoULd HeAL onLy, if you don't think spamming boring buttons over and over and over again is fun you're not a REAL HEALER!

Just going to leave this here: https://www.thoughtco.com/straw-man-fallacy-1692144

Yawn. It's been boring every time other Sylphies have claimed it, and it's still boring here.

Just going to leave this here: https://www.thoughtco.com/argument-a...-person-250322

Originally Posted by Nizzi

Not sure if you agree or disagree, but FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT: Suppose FFXIV introduced a Support DPS role that focused on buffing allies, debuffing enemies, had some limited healing (think SMN's Phoenix where it has an AOE, Medica 2 attached, and also has an Excogitation - but suppose this was usable at any point you want in your rotation). IF such a thing was introduced, do you think you'd want to try it out or play it? Basically, think HW/SB SCH of it was stuck in Cleric Stance 100% of the time (remember back in the day, Lustrate was a 25% health heal regardless of Cleric) and had damage and mitigation buffs like PvP SCH and had the SB era SCH damage kit.

A Support DPS.

Would you like to play that?

Originally Posted by Rilifane

Because everyone who wants engagement during downtime through a more varied dps rotation is not a true healer and should just play DPS.

Just going to leave this here: https://www.thoughtco.com/straw-man-fallacy-1692144

Originally Posted by Banriikku

Funny ? No not any more. I wonder about one thing, if the healers get a dps rotation nothing changes for these people they still would play the same and the could go one about their day without any problem but if we would change healing it would make healer more difficult and they could not go on like they used to. For that reason i believe these people hate healers and just want a easy carry aka beeing lazy.

This is, again, the lying I'm talking about above:

This is 100% untrue. Right now, a Glarespamming WHM that refreshes Dia every 30 sec can contribute sufficient DPS to clear Enrages. If you got the changes you want, either (a) your added buttons would have to do minuscule additional damage (think DoTs that do 103 potency of damage over 9 sec; that is are damage neutral vs Glare, whatever) such that you're literally just pressing them as different buttons to do the exact same damage, or (b) your added buttons are needed for your Job to do the damage it does now/damage equal to now when adjusted for inflation (Square isn't going to increase healer damage since they balance around it being what it is now for whatever reason) in which case the Dia refreshing Glare spammer now does not do enough damage to clear enrage, or (c) somehow Square decides that you pressing more buttons DO get to do more damage, meaning your groups can shrug off Enrages like they were nothing and will clear all Savage and Ultimate fights the first night of Prog at which point you'll come to the forums to complain that fights in the game are too easy and Enrages too lenient.

There's not really another option. Either players that can RIGHT NOW clear content will be unable to if they continue their playstyle as it is today OR the content will be clearable by them, in which case those of you doing the extra will find even hard content mindlessly trivial (so much so having 1-2 extra buttons won't placate you), OR the extra button presses will be damage neutral side-grades making them pointless to even press and you will be pissed you aren't being rewarded with more damage.

Glare spammers are able to clear Savages right now. You might not LIKE that, but that's a "I'm an elitist and want other people to not be able to clear MY content" argument, not a "I'm bored and want to be less bored" argument. There's no way to make healer damage kits more complex that isn't either making content (Enrages) trivial OR taking content away from people able to clear it now with their present playstyle OR making the extra button presses meaningless and trivial.

The "they can make it more fun for we that want complex while people that want to 'be bads' can still do what they're doing now" argument is faulty on all levels. There's literally no case where it can be true.

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

This is why they're so aggressive in their arguments.

Gotta love all of you armchair psychologists talking about and at me instead of to me. I'm presenting actual arguments. Calling me a "Sylphie" or psychoanalizing me isn't a rebuttal. Shall I once again link the ad hominem fallacy?

Here, just for you: https://www.thoughtco.com/argument-a...-person-250322

[/QUOTE]It's a great life in the Sylphie imaginary bubble. You twiddle your thumbs half a fight and poke Medica II a bit for the other half and now you're a REAL HEALER. The elite. Not one of those filthy dps spamming halfbreeds, a pure blooded HEALER. By doing basically nothing and with no real practice you're a gift to any party and stand above the crowd. A credit to the role and true to your principles.[/QUOTE]

I don't run parsers. I don't run add-ons. I don't upload to the website that shall not be named. But you can find me on it. Look at my clears of P1S, P2S, Extremes, and Aglaia.

Tell me again how I don't DPS and only cast Medica 2 in between twiddling my thumbs because I'm not a "filthy dps spamming halfbreed"?

You know what? I'ma do it again:

Just going to leave this here: https://www.thoughtco.com/straw-man-fallacy-1692144

Seriously, if you people actually looked at peoples ACTUAL arguments instead of your collective caricatures of them, MAYbe we could have an actual discussion and MAYbe you might actually get a compromise that gives you some of the things you want...

And here we are trying to pop that bubble with logic and drag them down from the illusionary throne into reality. And reality isn't pretty. How dare we.

I think I can quote BOTH of those articles again to you here.

You're not trying to pop any bubbles, nor are you using logic. You're using logical fallacies to drag me down into your illusory "reality" while I'm using logic to try and explain to you why there is another path that we should take - arguments you completely ignore because you'd rather call me a Sylphie and psychoanalyze me (poorly) than actually read, much less address, my argument. Which, as I've stated before, is:

Give SCH a complex DoT based gameplay with interactions (Fester/Bane, etc - imagine having Shadow Flare and putting it down before using Fester for it to add additional potency as an additional DoT) which leverages oGCD heals and Eos, SGE to be given a balance caster rotation like RDM's caster phase that builds up to using Toxicon/Plegma as a burst combo finisher, and AST to drop Combust and have a 1-2-3 Gravity -> Comet -> Meteor rotation that they can weave Card buffs and old (HW era) Royal Road and semi-old (ShB era) Minor Arcana within, while leaving WHM exactly as it is today for people that like the present system.

This way, literally everyone wins.

Well, everyone...other than...people that lie about being bored when what they really want is an elitist game where only they and players like them can clear content, of course. But everyone ELSE would be happy/win, anyway.

Originally Posted by ASkellington

Where in this post do you think I want to do dps numbers in comparison to actual DPS? Juggling dps/buffs/healing is what the healing role DOES in mmos.

No, I don't. I think you want to do something other than healing. "juggling dps" is DPSing. "juggling buffs" is something no Job in this game does other than maybe AST. And many MMOs, do not, in fact, juggle dps/buffs/healing on their healers. MOST MMOs separate these out. Some even have an entire Support role (though this is somewhat rare) to capitalize on people who want to support their party in a way that isn't healing and is more offensively focused (buffing allies, debuffing enemies) but not direct damage.

If you have a buff you keep it up on the party as often as you can. When there is a time that healing is required (usually unavoidable damage) you heal as much as needed and go back to casting a dps spell, literally how AST is played.

As for the rest of your post. RDM isn't a healer. I've played RDM.

But what you said above is literally what RDM does.

"If you have a buff you keep it up on the party as often as you can." - Embolden, Magick Barrier (as applicable)

"When there is a time that healing is required (usually unavoidable damage) you heal as much as needed and go back to casting a dps spell" - though the community has decided this is "bad", is is what Vercure was originally designed to do, and still works for. RDMs can use Vercure to lead into Thunder/Aero via Dualcast, too, allowing for a seamless flow in their healing and damage. That is, they don't have to interrupt their general DPS rotation flow to wedge in Vercures. If Vercure actually did something like gave as much White Mana as Verstone (something that to this day it makes no sense for it NOT to do) or gave equal amounts of both like Jolt/Scatter/Impact/Scorch (to prevent going out of balance when needing to heal), it would be a more minimal DPS loss and could be used more readily.

This is literally how RDM can be played, just the community decided it shouldn't be. It can be played this way in ANYTHING that doesn't have an Enrage, and quite a few things that do.

I'm not suggesting RDM to you as some kind of backhanded slight. I seriously mean that it is more or less what you want in a Job. If RDM had Vermedica and some oGCD heal like Vertetragrammaton, it would basically be everything you're asking for in a Job.

If anything you should be telling me to play BLU since it seems to have a similar design philosophy you and I agree on. Thing is, no. I'm not playing BLU when healers can be equally as fun as BLU healer.

I don't know where you get this from, BLU healers are obnoxious. They have relatively few healing tools, the most bare-bones healing kit possible, and are basically damage dealers. They aren't "fun" in that sense. They are a support DPS, though. Again, that does seem to be what you want...

You missed the entire point of my PvP mention. So I'll simplify it here: there are building blocks that healers like in their PvP variants that we want in PvE.

You say "we".

Many healers do not, in fact, want that. As I've noted, PvP "healers" aren't Healers, they're Support DPS.

But note where I've said my ideal solution WOULD BE to take some of that and put it on SOME (2-3) of our healer Jobs so that you could play that if you wanted to.

And as for your statement of "openly lying" at NO POINT did I say WHM had vast amount of support tools. I said "healers" as in IN GENERAL "had more support and dps options" and lost them. WHM losing a DoT and Stoneskin counts towards that broad statement, sorry if you disagree.

I used WHM as an example because your statement is effectively wrong. WHM effectively lost (on net) one DPS spell and gained several oGCD and GCD healing spells and CDs in its place. You can't even say it "lost" Stoneskin (in terms of today) because Divine Benison IS Stoneskin by another name that you won't get yelled at by the dpsing tryhards that insist you're a bad WHM for even having it on your bars - which is the reason it was removed in the first place. It had a pitiful effect for anyone that wasn't a tank and was very MP inefficient vs casting heals. Divine Benison IS Stoneskin under the modern healing system of "use every GCD you can for damage and only weave oGCD heals unless you're bad".

And personally I don't think Divine Bension is a better alternative to Stoneskin as the latter is CERTAINLY more flavorful.

I disagree that Divine Benison isn't better (it clearly is) or that it doesn't have a flavor (it clearly does), but I genuinely do miss the old Stoneskin "stones interlocking into place" animation. I would LOVE for us to have it back as a low-level Divine Benison that eventually upgrades into the DB we have today. God knows WHM could use some more low level abilities, and giving it something that later upgrades seems the perfect solution. Level 25 or so getting an oGCD Stoneskin that has a 30 sec CD and does a 200 potency barrier or something which later upgrades into DB would be a great idea to me which I wouldn't have any complaints about.

WHM/AST/SCH start with their 1 nuke 1 dot from lv4. SGE when you sink down doesn't get their DoT till 30, and they gain... Toxicon and Phlegma. <---dunno why they can have 2 extra buttons and other healers can't especially since there is no combo action.

Because SGE was supposed to be "the more DPS engaging Healer", hence more DPS buttons. Honestly, I like the idea of it having a 1-2-1-2-1-2 balance thing like RDM that builds up to a 3-4 combo of Toxicon and Phlegma. Since itheals through Kardia, there's no reason for it to need more heals, just boost Kardia based on the damage of the spells used and normalize them that way. SGE is already designed as a control healer that mostly has a smooth healing curve over time they can augment with CDs when higher bursts of healing are needed. They could really leverage that into a WoW Disc Prist or RIFT Chloromancer - which if you DON'T want a Support DPS is probably the type of healer you'd find more engaging - where most of your healing is done passively through you dealing damage and optimizing your damage results in powerful combo finishers and an easier healing curve.

Macrocosmos/Assize/Pnuema?/Earthly Star are not DPS abilities without also being tied to a heal which I do not count and we arguably shouldn't and Lord of Crowns is RNG.

Does anyone NOT use Assize on CD or near CD? It's basically a DPS ability with a heal tacked on, not a heal with damage tacked on.

[QUOTE]What other DPS abilities exist for healers on a GCD?[QUOTE]

Note the part in bold. And I think you've listed most of them, though I think you missed Misery and Energy Drain.

I ask this because as a new player to FFXIV back in SHB I was expecting more. And I certainly feel it is dumb for me to spam Stone/Glare/Malefic/Broil for any solo duties where I play as my healing class. And as SE wants FFXIV to be a more SINGLE PLAYER EXPERIENCE for a new player starting out as CNJ that should be fix along with a slew of other issues I have with healers.

As I've said in other discussions, WHM in FFXIV has effectively the same DPS kit as Resto Druid in WoW.

There's nothing wrong with a healer working that way, and CNJ/WHM is designed to be a pure healer that is easy to pick up and play and isn't DPS focused. It needs no changes.

THAT.
SAID:

There's no reason we can't have some diversity with the other healers so that people that DO want more buttons to push have an outlet.

As for the "healers feel different" comment, no. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty sure. But AST shares too much with WHM and SGE shares too much with SCH for me to agree with you. The latter two I can LITERALLY arrange my bars near 1:1 and play just fine.

I play every healer other than AST. The reason I don't play AST is because it plays and feels so different than WHM I dislike it. SCH and SGE feel completely different to play other than the Aetherflow/Addersgall spenders, which are LARGELY similar. The rest of their healing kits are distinct, including their GCD shielding abilities. Adlo's interaction with Recitation, Deployment Tactics, and even Emergency Tactics is already distinct from SGE's Eukrasia Diagnosis, and the different ways they cast also feels different to execute in general - pity we don't actually have much need to DO IT very often. But when you're actually using the healing tools of both, they feel different. Even their DPS does: SCH has Ruin 2 to for movement at range and Energy Drain to weave off of other spells while SGE has Toxicon if shields are being used and broken (outside of the initial 3 you get for free by zoning in) and an Assize-like big hitter ON the GCD that requires close range and has a comparable CD.

I'm not saying this to try and overstate my case, I genuinely do feel different when playing each. When doing hard hitting content or Prog, I'd MUCH rather be on SCH than SGE because I feel like it has far more flexibility and powerful abilities to deal with crises vs SGE's more "control healer" that excels when players know fights and damage is mostly controlled. SGE is more like BLM while SCH is more like RDM in terms of being able to adapt on the fly to Prog situations. And when I play WHM, while I love the simplicity, I distinctly feel not having Sacred Shield and (the mitigation part of) Expedience, or Seraph. I have Temperance and...that's it. WHM has no other party mitigation since Asylum (despite the name) doesn't offer protection and there's no AOE version of Benison/Aquaveil, unlike AST...which DOES have some of those things.

Even in the DPS department, SCH lets me use Ruin 2 freely for movement or weaving. It is a DPS loss, but not as much of a loss as long runs preventing any casting at all if learning a fight and needing to reposition more than one might have anticipated. SGE has Phlegma for this, but it being melee range limits how freely you can employ it.

Do I want Doublecast in PvP? Hells no I hate it for my healing (I want the shield part first not the regen thank you very much) but do I want AST to be established as a HOT healer when you start at 30 instead of WHM but with cards? Yes.

On the one hand, it seems odd to me to say "Here's how AST is better in PvP...oh, but I don't want that", but on the other hand, I do understand the general "But I want SOMEthing."

As I said before, I think widening the gap between AST and WHM would be a great thing. Giving AST some more DPS buttons (clearing up the stupid buttons like "Undraw" - why does this ability even EXIST?? - would make some room) and having AST be more of a HoT healer with WHM more of a direct healer could help do that. Indeed, as I've advocated several times now, leaving WHM alone would actually help increase this diversity.

Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Please do note that the moment you say you never tried Crystalline Conflict, you immediately discredit yourself

No, it doesn't.

As I noted, I don't like CC type PvP. This is why I was talking about how PvP works in Frontlines - you have the exact same abilities and they work the exact same way (the issue is more interactions with 23 other people instead of 4). It's not "being disingenuous" with statements about PvP "without actually playing it", since playing Frontlines IS playing PvP. Your argument is akin to someone saying "Unless you've played Eureka, you can't talk about PvE and you discredit yourself" or "Unless you've played PotD to floor 200, you discredit yourself about any PvE discussion".

I am, though, looking forward to what they do for Frontlines. Adding diminshing returns on crowd control would honestly be a great start.

In other words, damage is "non-threatening" or "non-lethal" in the sense that the damage can never exceed your maximum healing output to the point where it causes your ally to immediately die.

That doesn't make it trivial, though. Not being able to 100% kill someone from full health (SAM can, btw) is not non-threatening or non-lethal. Most any Job can be taken from 100% to 0% health within 10 seconds by a single DPS Job enemy. Players can be instantly killed from 100% in the space of a single GCD window. Purify being a GCD proves this as any stun can result in you being killed in the time you press Purify, its effect registers and it triggers its CD, and before you can press Recuperate. Damage outside of burst is LESS lethal, but can absolutely lead to deaths, and burst right now is insanely lethal. Against low enough max health enemies (Jobs have tiers of health, SGE, for example, occupies the tier of least max health), even healers like WHM can 100% -> 0% them in the space of about 3-4 GCDs and, with the Stun from WHM's LB and throwing in Miracle to prevent Guard as they come out of it, the enemy can be locked down for 100% of its health in damage and a death. By a healer.

Which is a bit ridiculous.

And Again... you're bringing up the problem of a lack of healing by using Frontlines as your excuse to cover 8 players against 24+ enemies. This is in the situation of 5v5 (Crystalline Conflict) because this is what the healer toolkit is tuned to. It's not as if you have 2 healers guaranteed for each party, so it's imperative to pay attention to yourself first and foremost as each job has their own survival built-in to their toolkit.

Until such time as we see a Frontline balance pass that removes the CDs on spam heals, this is a vacuous statement. But it still leaves us under the original argument and what I said there: Healers in FFXIV PvP as of right now are support DPSers, not Healers.

[QUOTE]Are you using WHM's Limit Break nearby with your allies near the enemy (5 to 10 yalms),[QUOTE]

Yes.

As a rule, in Frontlines I don't travel anywhere alone because...it's fatal. The only time I'll actually go alone to that level is if enemies are capturing a node since using LB and Seraph can SOMETIMES keep them from capturing it juuuuust long enough for my team to arrive and engage them, thus preventing the capture.

Outside of that, I travel with my headless stampeed of chickens that are my Frontline party as best I can, despite them splitting all over the place with half the team fighting the 1st place enemy and losing badly while the other half fights the 3rd place enemy, also losing badly so they can end up in 2nd place, because I guess Yellow looked at one of my team mates funny at the start of the map and half the team couldn't let that go for...reasons.

Fronlines can be fun, but it's an absolute crap shoot most of the time, lol

That said, my record number of Knockouts with a single WHM LB was 10. But that was me finishing them off rather than setting them up for my team to finish. Nadaam when everyone was fighting over an S Rank in the middle and, at considerable risk, I happened to get myself lined up with an entire enemy team JUST so and blasted into them, and enough were weak from all the Bahamuts being dropped all over the node by all three teams that my LB was able to wipe out 10 people. XD

Scholar is the anti-thesis of Summoner's Bahamut.

I do like the symmetry of that, honestly. Unfortunately, in the PvP game as a whole, it doesn't work out that way all the time.

That said, besides WHM, SCH is my favorite healer to play. I just like WHM better because I actually have ready access to heals. SCH's kit is more mitigation based outside of its LB, which it gets less frequently. WHM at least has Cure 2 that does noticeable healing and can layer it with Aquaveil if needed, while Adlo is more for the damage buff and doesn't heal/shield for that much, comparatively. I'm honestly not sure how KOs are calculated in Frontlines. Sometimes I'll do 90% of damage to an enemy and not get the KO, sometimes I'll do 10% and finish them off and not get a KO, but on SCH, I'll Adlo spread to my party and Bio spread to the enemy and then even 10-20 seconds later be getting assists and some KOs. It's weird.

So uh... yeah... that's a problem on your end, if you aren't able to do well with Scholar on Frontlines.... because Scholar actually preforms much better on Frontlines due to how their gameplay works. I can confirm as I've consistently gained max Battle High from it. So uhm... sorry, you just outed yourself for not knowing how to effectively perform well on Scholar.

And then the ad hominem jerk comes out. Thanks for that. As it turns out (see my above comment) I did not "outed (my)self for not knowing how to effectively perform well on Scholar". WHOOPS! You jumped the gun on that one and now look like a total moron and jerk.

I just dislike playing a support DPS - which is what SCH is in PvP - and prefer playing a healer - which WHM barely is in PvP but is the closest of the four - and so play WHM with a more defensive and healing based playstyle. Because I prefer actually playing a Healing Job not a Support DPS Job.

Also, no, Sage Limit Break does not allow other Limit Breaks or attacks to go through it randomly. It nullifies all damage - including Limit Breaks. It can even block a Ninja's Limit Break when an ally is under 50% HP. This is under the condition that the opponent does not have lype and you are under the buff Mesotes. Sage's Limit Break is only effective to block all damage when no one is in range of their Limit Break. This is what makes Sage's Limit Break powerful enough to block 5x Bahamut. For Dragoon's Limit Break, if the Dragoon attacked but did not get the lype debuff the moment your party is in attacked in the Sage Mesotes circle, then even a Dragoon's Limit break can be blocked.

I know for a fact that I've been killed by mass Bahamut drops in PvP inside of a SGE LB (mine or someone else's) that was dropped on the capture point in PvP even though the enemy SMNs were outside of it. Maybe the game calculates Bahamut ITSELF as being inside of it, I don't know, but it absolutely works. And I've both been killed by and killed others with WHM's LB laser inside of a SCH LB circle with the WHM (or me being the WHM) being outside of the circle.

It could be down to server ticks (maybe the buff not being applied yet), but I know this has happened to me or by me to other people. And one time I was in it for a good 5 seconds, meaning there's no reason the buff shouldn't have been applied...

PvP White Mage skills to press for damaging enemies:
Afflatus Misery - 15 seconds
Seraph Strike - 20 seconds
Miracle of Nature - CC - 25 seconds
Glare
Afflatus Purgation - 60 seconds (Limit Break)

For simplicity, I'll do the one.

PvE White Mage skills to press to damage enemies (Miracle isn't damage and can be considered analogous to something like Presence of Mind)

Afflatus Misery - 60 seconds
Assize - 45 seconds
Holy - no CD
Glare - no CD
Dia - no CD, but pressed every 30 sec

VS PvP:

Afflatus Misery - 15 seconds
Seraph Strike - 20 seconds
Glare - no CD
Afflatus Purgation - 60 seconds

[If we include Miracle for PvP, we include PoM for PvE]

PvE WHM has one more damage button than PvE WHM does. The main distinction here is that PvP WHM's extras are up more frequently, but PvP fights are also more bursty and over more quickly (individual skirmshes) than PvE boss fights, so this is more normalized out.

Also: Expedient...doesn't deal damage. Deployment Tactics ITSELF doesn't...but I'm a fan of DT in PvP and do wish the one in PvE (a) worked with Biolysis and (b) had a 30 sec CD or so instead of 90 sec - fite me, Yoshi P!!! - so I'll allow it.

PvP vs PvE SCH:

Both have Biolysis
Both have Broil
PvP has Mumification while PvP has Ruin 2 (no CD)
PvE also has Energy Drain, even if we DO count DT for PvP, this evens out. (Note ED can be used 3x per minute)

PvP Sage skills to press for damaging enemies:
Dosis III
Phlegma III - 15 seconds
Pneuma - 30 seconds
Eukrasia -> Eukrasian Dosis III - 15 seconds
Toxikon - 15 seconds
Toxikon II - whenever Eukrasian Diagnosis breaks

Doesn't the Toxicon II just count as Toxicon with some added benefits? It's not really a separate ability, just like how Fell Cleave and Inner Chaos are the same ability, just the latter is an enhanced version of the former.

SGE is actually the most PvE parity. Both have Dosis, Eukrasian Dosis, Toxicon, Plegma, and Pneuma.

And do keep in mind that, for this, it trades away any and all direct heals. When I first tried PvP after the revamp, SGE was the first Job I tried on. I was so pissed they had completely removed healing from PvP. When I swapped to WHM, I realized it was just SGE that they had made into a DPS instead of a healer. Though I quickly realized WHM and SGE had been relegated to support DPS instead of healers as well, with WHM simply being the lesser done of that and the ONE healer in PvP that is still vaguely akin to a healer...but just barely.

It's really not the same.

The average time it takes to kill another player in PvP is also not 10 minutes.

That said, I would 100% love for PvE CDs to be shorter. I'd have no complaint whatsoever, for example, if EVERY Lily spent generated a Blood Lily for use on Misery and Assize's CD was reduced to 20 seconds or something. Numbers would have to be tuned, but I wouldn't complain about that.

.

Entered in an EDIT due to post limit:

Originally Posted by Semirhage

"Pressing one button over and over and over again is incredibly boring. I want better design than that."

"STRAWMAN! AD HOMINEM! FALLACY FALLACY FALLACY!"

You literally replied to someone calling you out on using a straw man fallacy...

...by using a straw man fallacy... <_<

As for your position:

Pressing one button over and over and over again is incredibly boring. I want better design than that. And yes, that INCLUDES White Mage. It's bad design on all of the healers, not just one or two of them.

(1) We press more than one button - at least stow the hyperbole.

(2) When there's other buttons being thrown about and mechanics being danced through, no, it's not "incredibly boring", at least not to everyone.

(3) What you want isn't "better", it's "better for (you)". There's a distinction between "better for everyone" and "better for you".

(4) It doesn't have to include WHM, and if it DIDN'T, I'd actually be 100% in favor of you getting it on ALL THREE OF THE OTHER HEALERS. This is literally a case of you refusing to get what you want unless you get EVERYTHING and you must, necessarily, rob people that like the current system of their enjoyment to do so. No, there is no reason all of the Healers have to change to suit you.

(5) It's not "bad design". It's "design you don't like". And leaving one or two Healers alone would not prevent you from playing on the two to three that we change to suit you. You don't have to get literally all of them to get what you want, and insisting you do is childish and selfish.

Every line of bunk out of you about those healers AKSHULLY being "support DPS" is just you trying to take the "real healer" high ground

You can't help yourself from casting ad hominems, can you?

No, it's not. It's me stating as a fact that what you're looking for is a Support DPS type of class. There's literally nothing else to it. There's no hidden slight, passive aggressive insult, or ulterior motive. UNLIKE your own posts to me, which are filled with insults, namecalling, caricatures, open belittling...and the very last beyond the pale that I'll get to at the end from you.

But I can only tell you so many times that it's not a slight or an insult. At this point, you're willfully obtuse since you're rejecting what I've actually said to you in favor of choosing what you want to imagine that I've said instead because it's easier to argue against - the definition of a straw man fallacy.

I've played real healers

Congratulations, so have I.

WHM's damage kit in modern FFXIV is roughly equivalent to Resto Druid's in WoW, and no one is saying that Resto Druids are boring or braindead or have bad DPS kits. No one is saying it's "bad design", either. Your only argument can be "FFXIV needs to require more GCD healing" at that point, which is an position I'm actually in favor of but which you are dead set against since that would mean pushing less DPS buttons.

WHM - and all the healers - have abilities that feel impactful and meaningfully advance an encounter. Not as a Support DPS, but as a healer. Which is why, yet again, I would say what you're asking for is a Support DPS, not a healer.

And THIS:

YOU don't want a real healer. You want to be carried through hard content on a superfluous role on training wheels.

Is you revealing your true motivation, as I said from the start: To exclude people YOU deem unworthy of clearing YOUR content.

That's all this ever is.

At last, your true face revealed.

.

I want to play a class that heals. That most of what it does is healing. That contributes in other ways (party buffs or DPS) when it does not need to heal, but where most of its time is spent on needed and meaningful healing.

I want to play a real healer.

Because THAT is what a real healer is.

And that's what a person that wants to play a HEALER wants to play.

YOU trying to psychoanalize me and say "You are saying all these things clearly and directly...which obviously means you're a bad and lazy player that wants to be carried!" is you being a bad PERSON. And I think I'm done with your selfish, childish, and churlish replies.

.

And the most messed up part of it all?

Is I WANT them to change several of the healers TO SUIT YOU so that YOU can be happy playing them! I want YOU to have some healing Jobs that YOU enjoy playing! I want YOU to be happy along side me and the people that like playing as I do being happy. I WANT them to make some Support DPS healers JUST FOR YOU and people like you to enjoy! I just want there to still be real and pure healers for people like me to enjoy, and I'm even content with it being JUST. ONE. OF. THEM!!

But in your selfish, self-centered, "me me me" world, you refuse to accept or allow that.

**Semirhage** · 06-28-2022 01:40 PM

All I see is
"Pressing one button over and over and over again is incredibly boring. I want better design than that."

"STRAWMAN! AD HOMINEM! FALLACY FALLACY FALLACY!"

To which I counter:

Pressing one button over and over and over again is incredibly boring. I want better design than that. And yes, that INCLUDES White Mage. It's bad design on all of the healers, not just one or two of them.

Pretend you're the only "real healer" here all you wish. I've played healers in games almost my whole life. Every line of bunk out of you about those healers AKSHULLY being "support DPS" is just you trying to take the "real healer" high ground, so we dirty half-healers can get out of your precious role.

I've played real healers. Real healers have more than cursory kit interactivity. They have more to do in downtime than spam Glare a gazillion times. They have abilities that feel impactful and meaningfully advance an encounter. They have more than just lolmedica2 and Afflatus Overheal. YOU don't want a real healer. You want to be carried through hard content on a superfluous role on training wheels.

**tearagion** · 06-28-2022 02:56 PM