At.
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10.
Characters...?
[Huh...that DOES work out much nicer!]
Originally Posted by QooEr
Thanks!
This is a straw man, and I think you know it.
If people were merely saying "Can I have one healer with a complex rotation so I'm less bored?" I'd be all for that. In fact, I am all for that and have said so. Repeatedly.
The issue comes from the people saying "Oh, wait, but no, they ALL have to be more complex, and anyone not able or willing to do it shouldn't be able to clear Extremes or Savages anyway."
Note the latter isn't the same as the former, and you can see plenty of the latter in these threads.
So yes, it is reasonable and rational to come to that conclusion, since we can set your straw man aside and point to the people insisting that those who don't want a complex DPS rotation shouldn't be able to engage in end-game content. Maybe set the straw man aside and look at what people are saying (indeed, I even addressed it in that post, I believe) and you'd see why I've reached that conclusion.
As I've noted many times: If gatekeeping was NOT the intent, people would have no issue with 1-2 or even 3 of the healers remaining simple. The desire to make them ALL more complex stems from a desire to gatekeep. Some people advocating for it are just more honest about that than others.
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To be extremely charitable: The one exception are the people that WOULD accept 1-2 being simple and 2-3 being complex but that like specific Job aesthetics (e.g. a person that wants complex DPS rotations but also loves WHM's aesthetic and can't stand the idea WHM would be the one healer left simple), but that's the exception rather than the rule...and ultimately, the sacrifice that would need to be made to make this change.
Indeed, my favorite Healer aesthetically, is SCH. I love the bookish, scholarly, sorta nerdy healer with a little friend that they work with to uplift and strengthen their allies to overcome the challenges before them with wit (tactics) and a focus on protecting their allies (barriers, mitigation). However, I've accepted the fact that SCH would most likely be one of the ones made more complex. And if that happens, I'd have to give it up to the complex camp.
...which is a sacrifice I'm wiling to make.
In the end, that kind of sacrifice has to happen - from both sides - for us to get a resolution to this issue. So the ONE exception I can make, being charitable, is the one that also has to be overcome to break from the status quo.
Ah, that makes sense. Then isn't this almost always misapplied? Most of the people you folks are calling Sylphies are Glare spamming. That means, by definition, they aren't "refusing to train the offensive side" of their magics, just that they want their offense to be as simple and straightforward as possible.
Largely: Yes.Do they?
Some do, but many do not. Many also don't realize that the game has changed since ARR Cleric Stance dancing, and how and why that wouldn't work with the current model (or wouldn't be terribly engaging). If we still had Cleric today, it would honestly just be like how we use an oGCD after an unavoidable raidwide, heal the party to full, then go back to spamming Glare/Dia. That would be what we have today with a clunky added step that doesn't do anything meaningful. There was never a point in FFXIV when people "weaved" in and out of Cleric, because Cleric had a CD that prevented that. It was always "Pop Cleric during lulls where there is little damage, stay in Cleric to spam Stone 2/3 and Ruin/Broil, pop out of Cleric when healing is needed, refresh DoTs when they expire (whether in or out of Cleric, the only TINY nuance here was you might refresh a DoT before leaving Cleric or leave a DoT off for a few seconds if it falls off when you're out but you're ABOUT to go back into Cleric, etc, but that's really not as interesting as people make it out to be), repeat". It wasn't some high level of gameplay, and it wasn't engaging or interesting - nor more of either than what we have now. It was just clunky and obnoxious, and gimped you if you used it and then a party member stepped in the bad. This is why the community complained about it and it was eventually removed.Or do they just want one of the healers they already had, but was taken away?
Some of the complaints are vaguely valid - I WOULD like Aero 3 back - but others are less so - Divine Benison is basically Stoneskin - and some are inane - people wanting WHM to be able to Cross-Class Thunder as an additional DoT, something they haven't been able to do since 2.1 or 2.2, somewhere in there. (As far as I can tell, WHM's never have been able to Cross-Class any of ACN/SMN's DoTs, though SCH could Cross-Class Aero, I think...)
I've done comparative analysis between then and now and WHM has exactly 1 less damage button now than it did in SB, while having 2 more GCD heals, and either 1 or 2 more (net change, since it lost some and gained others) oGCDs. If we went back to SB, we'd have two more DoTs but no Lilies, Misery, Benison, or Lilybell. While the last two one could argue we don't really need, Solace/Rapture/Misery have changed the Job and honestly for the better (letting it be a "GCD Healer" but NOT overly gimping it in MP or damage by doing so). Though there are arguably other ways that could be worked on (e.g. casting any GCD heal generating 1/3rd of a Blood Lily, meaning Medica 2/Cure 3/etc wouldn't be DPS losses), that would be a more extensive rework of the HEALING kit, which is what the people asking for more DPS buttons aren't asking for anyway.
Now, SCH, on the other hand, lost 2-4 DoTs (depending on how you're counting), pet micromanaging (which was clunky as all hades, but some people enjoy that), a DoT interaction direct damage spell (Fester), a DoT interaction AOE cleave (Bane), but also gained a spamable AOE (Art of War) in ShB. SB SCH's, once they spread Bane, were stuck Broil spamming in AOE situations because they had no spamable AOE direct damage attack. The closest you had was spamming Miasma 2, which was stupidly MP expensive and did paltry damage from the up front hit of spamming it.
AST...okay, AST has been done dirty its entire life. It started as severely untertuned in HW, causing people to get a stigma against it, then overtuned, then kind of balanced; it went from cards being interesting but ONLY having 2 that you wanted (for single target) and 1 (for AOE) with the others all being "press [x] to facepalm and rethink your life decisions" to cards that were mostly the same but at least you could play with Sleeve Draw and Minor Arcana burning to get the seals you needed, to now seals don't even matter in a realistic sense and you just have a stupid busy opener (to be fair...that's always been kinda true...); and though Noct was always the weaker stance vs Diurnal, it allowed FFXIV to effectively have 4 healers, and there's legitimately no good reason for them to have taken it away imo. Especially since they just filled the slot with another healer anyway. Better to have left it in so we'd effectively have 5 healers now. But, again, AST has been done dirty its entire life. It's still the busiest and ARGUABLY hardest/most complex healer today.
(In reply to me noting Glare spammers can clear Savages right now)I don't really care, WHM could stay a Glare spammer for all I care. I'm exercising a "right" as a paying customer to say: "healers used to be more fun to me, please make a couple like that again".
If you're fine leaving 1-2 healers alone, while making 3 or 2 more complex, congratulations: That's literally been my argument this entire time, and we agree! \o/
Jerk...Your specific ideas kind of suck,
Kinda jerk...but at least you can finally arrive at your point
Mega uncalled for jerk...after hundreds of characters of meaningless squabbling.
Could you not have said this without the three things above?A point that is in essence agreeable.
But yes, in essence...we could strike an accord on this.
If only you could do so without the rampant insults...but an accord is an accord, I suppose...
Aaaand there it is...
Thanks for proving my point, I suppose.
Yeah, the problem is, that's not likely to happen either. If he doesn't want to make healing hard because it will drive off healing players in his mind, why would making them hard via a DPS rotation instead be something he'd entertain?
Again, my point has consistently been to make 2-3 of the healing Jobs more complex while leaving 1-2 as they are today. This would serve everyone well. The people who like the aesthetics of a Job that is going to be the opposite of what they want (e.g. WHM lovers who want complex or SCH lovers who want simple) would kind of draw the short straw, but the alternative is half the playerbase being upset that healing Jobs are DPSers complete with complex DPS rotations OR half the playerbase being upset that healing Jobs are too boring for them. So this compromise is probably the best option.
Also: The reward is clearing the contents/beating the fights, though...? If you heal nothing at all, I'm pretty sure people will die in most fights. ZodEx don't heal at all and the multi-hit stack mechanic will kill people, even if everything else is executed flawlessly. So will the AOE bleed. HydEx's damage is more spaced apart, but I think the stack/spread (after Chackrams) will kill people without healing even if they execute everything else right. P1S's Fourfold will kill people if there's no healing since the four hits, added together, do more than 100% of HP damage for anyone that isn't a Tank (and if everyone else dies to the 3rd wave, the tanks would die to the 4th absent Invulns)
People contest this with "P1S and P2S were cleared with all Tanks, though!"
Yes. ALL Tanks. Not 2 Tanks and 6 DPS. Because Tanks have self-healing out the wazoo and high HP so they can survive the raidwides and then self-heal up in between them, something that would not be true of 6 DPSers, I don't think. Though I'd be interested to see a run that was 2 Tanks, 6 DPSers, with none of them being RDMs or SMNs or RPRs (e.g. no healing other than Second Wind and Bloodbath)
I'm pretty sure most content, especially at level, requires some healing in order to clear the encounter, even if it's mostly done with oGCDs. So you are rewarded for healing with clears. I'm honestly not sure what else you can be rewarded with, though. You can't be rewarded with more damage (or, at least, not much more) since that would screw with how Enrages are tuned. Is "now you are forced to do a DPS rotation!" a "reward"? I and many others don't think so. You get to do slightly more damage by being a more efficient healer (using oGCDs and GCD heals appropriately to minimize the latter and free up more slots for damaging GCD use) which slightly raises the chance of a clear and slightly reduces time to kill. But we have that with the current system already anyway...
Where did I say "support DPS don't work as support DPS in PvP"?
I said they don't work AS HEALERS in PvP, and that they aren't healers in PvP, they're support DPS. Something you're even agreeing to. I'm not even sure what you're arguing here other than "Okay, we agree, but I want to insult you and pretend like you don't know what you're talking about because belittling you makes me think my argument is stronger" or something.
You could have just said "Okay, yeah, I agree healers in PvP are really support DPS, and I guess that's what I really want to play, a support DPS, since I like that better". If you had just said that...well, I wouldn't have said any of this. Since that's basically the same as my argument on this topic to present.
And before you say "well, they do a lot of healing for 'not healers', don't they?!":
WAR outheals SGE in the average Frontline. And a lot of SCHs. And some ASTs. And it's NOT alone - a lot of not-green PvP Jobs outheal healers.
That said, WHM is the exception, which DOES tend to top the "healing done" category. But as I've noted, it's the only one of the PvP Jobs that really does, and a good chunk of that is because using its LB radiates healing moreso than its targeted heals being specifically responsible for all that healing. That is, much of that "healing" is a product of dealing damage, not of casting heals. And ALL of SGE's is.
Honestly, I think we two are (arguably) mostly in agreement.
As for role, I guess it would depend on how it's implemented. They could change up 4 man content to be 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 1 Support, 1 DPS and 8 mans to be 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 1 Melee, 1 Ranged, 1 Caster, 1 Support or something like that. 24 man's 8 man parties would be 1 Tank, 2 Heals, 1-2 Support, 3-4 DPS.
Alternatively, they could just be healers that do less healing but more buffing. As you say, anything with a pulse can clear 4 mans. SGE (leveling from 70-90) often feels weak in some dungeons (Dohn Mehg and Qatana Ravel come to mind), but still has ENOUGH healing to clear the content when leveraged with mitigation. I'm not sure how Ultimate/Savage would work with it being in a healer slot, though, since they'd have to balance around that.
...but, honestly, the "pure + barrier" thing has already been a total flop - people clear stuff with SCH/SGE parties, WHM/AST parties, and Ultimate has been solo healed by an AST (granted, with a mitigation and healing heavy party and tons of Vercures and Clemencies cast). So swapping "barrier" for "support/buffer" might honestly work out better.
Oh yeah, you're more or less right. I quit WoW in Legion and flirted with the idea of coming back when all the...well, you know...happened that more or less killed that drive completely.
But, when posting that, I did go and look up IcyVeins, which I'm guessing is still current. From what I can tell, the current Resto rotation has one of two aspects:
Balance affinity is basically current WHM with slightly more interaction. You have Wrath (Glare), Moonfire (Dia), and Starfall (Holy), and then a couple of abilities that don't PERFECTLY match WHM 1-to-1 but have near-adjacent parallels. Starsurge can be thought of to SORTA be like how WHM uses Lilies and then Misery, and Sunfire can be thought of KIND of like Asize (an AOE cleave) if it was a GCD, or alternatively Starsurge would be our Asize and Sunfire...has no equivalent since we don't have Aero 3 (a spell I WOULD like added back to FFXIV). Sunfire can be spammed, but that's a poor choice since you'd generally just apply it and then spam Starfire, using Starsurge on CD. There are some interactions - Starsurge boosting the next damage of Wrath if in Solar or crit of Starfall if in Lunar - but these are largely "use Starsurge on CD and keep casting Wrath or Starfall, respectively". So while there's an interaction ON PAPER, it's arguably little different to how we play WHM today, using Assize on CD and spamming Glare or Holy, respectively. There's a touch more nuance in that you DO go back and forth between Starfall and Wrath (unless >3 or 5, forget which, targets, at which point you apply Sunfire, use Starsurge on CD, and spam Starfall regardless of whether in Solar or Lunar), which would be like giving us a reason to cast Holy single-target in FFXIV, but in terms of overall kits...there' PRETTY close to parity.
Balance, that is. Which is slightly less DPS than Feral, but doesn't require melee, which makes Balance (from what I was reading) arguably preferred in raids, since a Resto Druid in Cat form in melee range with the melee blob can still be targeted by boss attacks that prefer ranged/caster/healers. Feral, on the other hand, is more useful in Mythics where, according to IcyVeins, anyway, a 0 DPS Druid vs a full uptime Feral marks a 10% contribution to the 5 man party's overall damage (Feral OR Balance in 10-25 mans contributes a far smaller percentage, making the choice much less significant and Balance possibly preferred for raids)
In the case of Feral, you retain Wrath, Starfire, and Sunfire, but add in (I won't remember the names, I was never a fan of Feral outside of jumping into Cat form in Battlegrounds like Alteric Valley so I could stealth around the map while still being a healer - something that I THINK is unique to WoW as I'm not aware of any other game where healers could use stealth!) another upkeep DoT, a basic combo builder strike, and two combo finishers, one being a DoT that you prefer (for damage) with the other being a direct damage that can be used instead if the target is close to dying. Oh and an AOE spamable (Swipe) in place of Balance having Starfall. You technically also have the combo spender that can stun, but it can only be used from out of combat and WHM has Repose anyway.
So compared to WHM, Feral has Swipe instead of Starfall for Holy, a DoT OR direct damage combo spender (imagine if WHM had a second Blood Lily spender that was a DoT instead of Misery - and for the sake of argument here, Misery would be equivalent to Feral's combo spender that does direct damage), a damage attack to build combo points (we can ARGUABLY equate this with Lilies though - they don't do damage but build "combo points" towards Misery, but they AREN'T spamable while Shred is), and an extra DoT from Rip, I believe it is. Oh, and still has Sunfire, though here we'd probably just call that Assize in this case.
So Feral has (if we hand-wave Shred for Solace/Rapture and keep Wrath as Glare and Dia for Moonfire, though I'm not sure if you'd use Wrath at all with this build outside of disengage situations, if those exist in WoW..?) roughly two extra abilities, largely in the form of an extra DoT (Rip) and a DoT combo point spender? If we view Solace/Rapture as Shred OR Rip and Glare as the other (handwaving Wrath away as "you don't use this if you're Feral aspected), then they're arguably the same number of overall damage buttons. If we can get over the fact that Solace/Rapture don't do damage outright themselves...but ARE part of the WHM rotation, even if healing isn't needed, for MP management and that Misery is a slight DPS gain, namely if used in burst windows. So including them as "dps buttons" actually IS valid, even if it seems like it shouldn't be. But again, if we set that aside, we'd say Feral has roughly 2 more damage buttons than WHM?
Though again, I'm not sure how Feral plays here, so I don't know if you're power shifting to cast several Wraths as part of your normal rotation or if we can just substitute Shred for Wrath as our "Glarespam" in this case. I feel like that's more likely, as what I read seemed to indicate Wrath was kind of your "lowest priority/last ditch DPS option" when you're using Feral affinity that you use when you can't be in Cat form for some reason. I'm also not sure if you can cast in Cat form or not? I vaguely remember some Talent or Glyph that let Guardians use Moonfire and Rejuvination in Bear form, but I don't know if that is still in the game or is in the game for Resto Druids?
I didn't even look at Guardian as IcyVeins didn't mention it...but you kind of note that and I think we agree it's probably NOT a popular option in general and we can set it aside.
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So the shorter version:
Guardian - Less buttons than WHM like as not, but who cares?
Balance - ROUGHLY the same number of buttons as WHM, plays SORT of the same as WHM, but with a little more nuance (e.g. if you used Holy some in single target and used Wrath some in SMALL pack multi-target), and with the abilities you use less often (Starsurge, Sunfire) having shorter CDs than WHM's rough equivalents, meaning you press those buttons somewhat more frequently than WHM presses its (Assize, Misery)
Feral - ROUGHLY the 1-2 more damage buttons, though it seems you press them more frequently as well, do a bit more damage but at the cost of doing much less when unable to be in melee, and have some fun side mechanics with stealth gameplay...but that doesn't really translate into FFXIV's combat system, dungeon system, PvP system (even NIN stealth is only active for, what, 10 secs in PvP?), or exploration content. Sadly, as I rather enjoy that.
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So yeah, I did actually go and read up on it since it has been a while and I wanted to make sure what I was saying was still somewhat accurate - and it was completely so 3-4 years ago - and it still seems to be LARGELY accurate today, again with caveats.
The NICE things are:
1) Resto Druids have the option to go with one or the other - which sadly wouldn't work in FFXIV's combat system (as Mr Happy noted recently, the idea of a "melee healer" doesn't work in FFXIV since it competes for uptime against melee DPSers when dealing with Savage/Ultimate mechanics) - if people want slightly more complexity or slightly less.
2) Resto Druids use more of their damage kit more frequently because the CD/gating (combo points) happens faster than WHM's equivalents (60 seconds for Misery, 45 seconds for Assize)
3) Resto Druids actually use their HEALING KIT a lot more, too, since WoW forces a good deal more healing than FFXIV does.
3) There's a BIT more interaction with their damage kits than with WHM, where the only real interaction is between Rapture/Solace and Misery, and that you can use Presence of Mind with things (not sure Resto Druids have a PoM equivalent, but I THINK they do, even if it's more used a healing tool - that thing that just shoots off a bunch of spells all at once. Which...admittedly sounds WAY more badass/fun, though a lot of those are heals. Magic explosion!!)
Holistically, I don't see them as being ALL that different, as I presented above - the Balance interactions don't really change things other than you cast your AOE spam nuke in single target and in FFXIV you do not; that is, Starsurge buffs don't really CHANGE your rotation, it makes slightly bigger numbers for continuing the same rotation - and Feral nudges you into Melee and gives you an extra two DoTs (one as a combo point finisher) and leverages the combo point system, which Balance does not (WHM has Lilies in both cases as a near equivalent to this, but it's more of a side gauge due to the Lily refresh being once ever 20 sec rather than Feral being able to generate combo points with Rip and Shred)
I can see Resto Druid being a bit more active since CDs are lower, but I'm also not sure how many more heals you're having to cast in WoW, since WoW doesn't have oGCD equivalents. That is, you're HAVING to interrupt your Glarespam to cast Medica 2, refresh Regen on the tank, cast Cure that has a HoT attacked for spot healing, etc. You can't just Tetra, Assize, Bene, Benison, Asylum weave and continue casting damage spells unabated, yeah?
And, again: Stun = Repose, WHM has this, it's just not used in FFXIV (and it's not used against in boss fights in WoW, either, since you can't stealth in boss fights)
Is that a fair enough analysis?
/sigh
I wish WoW/Acti-Bliz wasn't WoW/Acti-Bliz right now, because I really did enjoy rolling HoTs on parties, stealthing around to objectives in BGs, and Wrathspam. I don't know why, but I've always liked WoW Druid aesthetics, even if I don't typically like nature mages. I like the gentle nurturing and regrowing aesthetic a lot, and I enjoyed Balance's Lunar/Solar thing. BLM kind of has that, but it's just not the same (and I can't heal on BLM...) My only gripe was I'm irl short and like playing short races, and all WoW races that can be Druids are giants. XD
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06-29-2022 04:00 PM #11Player
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