Hissatsu: Kaiten

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

My problem is that they said they did it for action bloat. The problem is that there are many others ways they could reduce button bloat without removing Kaiten. Combine Shoha 1 and 2 or Guren and Senei.

They mean action bloat, as in, button presses, not button bloat(which is its own issue)


As it is, kaiten is the 2nd most used action (generally tied with shinten) after hakaze.


To me, when it's used that much, it doesn't have much weight behind it. It doesn't "feel good" to me to use it, unlike something like stardiver, which has prep involved and isn't used constantly.

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

[YukiB]

They mean action bloat, as in, button presses, not button bloat(which is its own issue)

As it is, kaiten is the 2nd most used action (generally tied with shinten) after hakaze.

And with its removal, we just use more Shinten.

The "action bloat" is not solved, and the other 2nd most used action is used nearly twice as much.

And what happens when no one wants to play healer then? Oh wait...

Optimistically, SE realizes no one can run endgame content because no one wants to play healer, and makes adjustments to healers.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

And with its removal, we just use more Shinten.

The "action bloat" is not solved, and the other 2nd most used action is used nearly twice as much.



Optimistically, SE realizes no one can run endgame content because no one wants to play healer, and makes adjustments to healers.

50%ish more, which is still a net reduction in skill usage.

[Xenon_S]

50%ish more, which is still a net reduction in skill usage.

Top SAM parse in P4S P2 had 33 Kaitens over 6:43 kill time, CPM for kaiten is 4.9
Translate that into 660 Kenki and you get 26.4 Shintens instead, for a reduction of 1 in CPM to 3.9, with the added effect of making the gameplay more braindead

Top SAM in ShB usually have CPM of 47 or higher, and there weren't complaints to action bloat.
Now the top CPM of samurai is just around 46, and all the sudden there exists an action bloat problem.

Samurai, by virtue of their skillspeed buff, and the fact that the kenki gauge cost the spammable skills are 25 or less (compared to most other jobs' gauge dump being 50), will inherently have a high CPM.

If there were no complaints of action bloat in ShB, then there is no argument for action bloat now that the CPM has already been lowered.
And given that there is no action bloat, there is no need to remove kaiten.

Also guess what changed from 4.x to 5.x? they gutted Hagakure and added Tsubame Gaeshi so samurai won't be shinten spamming. Unless the entire kenki system gets reworked, samurais will go back to shinten spams.

[SeaJae]

They mean action bloat, as in, button presses, not button bloat(which is its own issue)


As it is, kaiten is the 2nd most used action (generally tied with shinten) after hakaze.


To me, when it's used that much, it doesn't have much weight behind it. It doesn't "feel good" to me to use it, unlike something like stardiver, which has prep involved and isn't used constantly.

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

Guess what is going to be used even more than Hakaze, now that the only other meaningful gauge spender is being removed? So might as well remove Shinten. And then, might as well remove the job gauge. This logic is really detrimental to job design. SAM doesn't have an action bloat problem. So I don't even know why I'm accepting your opinion on what the dev's meant, when the translation was right there on the slide.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Guess what is going to be used even more than Hakaze, now that the only other meaningful gauge spender is being removed? So might as well remove Shinten. And then, might as well remove the job gauge. This logic is really detrimental to job design. SAM doesn't have an action bloat problem. So I don't even know why I'm accepting your opinion on what the dev's meant, when the translation was right there on the slide.

I dont think you understand how half kaiten + shinten is less than shinten + kaiten.

Hakaze is the most used skill because it starts 3 combos.

Again, you all are over-reacting and using words that spark fear to push your point across. Its not a huge loss.

[Dzian]

"Remove to improve" strikes again.

Can't wait when they finally remove tank stances too because in a few years even Genshin Impact gonna have more skills/keys to use than FFXIV

More skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. there are games where you may only have 5 or 6 skills but the way they flow and the impact they have on a fight makes for a much better gameplay experience.

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.

To me, when it's used that much, it doesn't have much weight behind it. It doesn't "feel good" to me to use it, unlike something like stardiver, which has prep involved and isn't used constantly.

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

pretty much agree with this.. when you're pressing a button that many times it really doesnt feel fun or impactful. (problem with many ogcds in general, they're just busy buttons to keep you occupied)

when you're pressing a button to power up every iajutsu. are you really powering them up?. or just doing normal damage?

[ItsUrBoi]

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.

But it does. In fact more so than almost any other skill Samurai has right now ( maybe except Tsubame ). While in the opener its easy to miss why it is important, in the 1 minute burst it is basically a question of how many Shintens can you use, while always having enough kenki too boost your next Iaijutsu. Without this mechanic you can literally just dump it all mindlessly on Shinten whenever you want, otherwise you'd have to always make sure you are not at <20 kenki when finishing a combo and having to use an Iaijutsu. Try doing the samurai opener and rotation optimally and you will see that it does require you to stop yourself from using Shinten on cooldown.

Also how often do you even use Kaiten, its used once per minute on Higanbana, and once on every Iaijutsu + Ogi Namikiri... It has an average cast of 4.5 per minute or so. That's one cast every 15 seconds. Look at how often people use it across a fight, seriously.

Reasoning this change on button bloat is weird and not so rational, turning Ikishoten into Ogi Namikiri, or replacing Shoha with Shoha 2 would be better ways to address button bloat without sacrificing job mechanics / complexity.
If you do not play Samurai, nor understand the opener / how it works, please refrain from saying whether or not a button carries no weight or impact. You need a better understanding of the job first.
All this change does is it lowers the skill floor of the job while taking away 1 button and a cool animation.

[Dzian]

Snip

admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

Unless it changes between 83 and 90 the answer is always NEVER! which means there no choice no strategy no impact, its just bloat..

now if it was a case where you kaiten had a cool down and you could only use it on i dunno maybe 1/3 of your iajutsu uses then bam!! now it has weight and impact because not only is there an element of choice to be made but there would also be a visible difference when using it... "whoa that midare ripped the boss to shreds compared to the last ones i did..."
but when you kaiten everything it's just another midare for the same old damage yet again... boriiingggg..

[ItsUrBoi]

admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

I understand what your saying about it being a choice, and you are right you always want to use Kaiten before any Iaijutsu, but you are not getting my point also.
My point in short is that you have to not use Shinten whenever you want, so that you have enough for a Kaiten. Kaiten is mandatory before every Iaijutsu and strict, while Shinten is not, so you are making a choice to not use Shinten when you have >25 Kenki because if you got a Iaijutsu coming up you won't have enough for the mandatory Kaiten.
I hope it makes sense now.