6.0 Summoner: Thoughts on an Unsuccessful Rework After 1 Month of Gameplay

[Ransu]

I mean if we're going to talk about the mechanical design, a lot of credible people have voiced the issues of the rework's design in many threads and how it basically failed to fix most of its past issues aside from its thematic presentation. I think it's safe to say it's pretty unsuccessful in that part, too.

Ruin IV should be an oGCD and their shield shouldn't be tied to carbuncle so they can use it when necessary instead of it being greyed out all the time, but aside from that its general design is great. I overall really enjoy how it plays now.

[rewd]

Again, just because isn't a job being favored for Savage clears, doesn't mean that it should be branded as unsuccessful, unless your parameters are just regarding Savage content, which is mostly a personal thing, as different players have different objectives. And to that, as far as I'm aware, SMN had (still have, arguably) potency issues and that factor alone might make people not opt for them on Savage. Potency numbers have little to do with the actual mechanical design of the job.

You are right, that alone isn't enough to say the rework was unsuccessful. The fact that you can play the job with a macro and be close to optimal means the rework is unsuccesfull, unless you think that this is great design for a DPS job (or any job, really).

If you do think this is good design, then I think we have to thank people like you for the general direction of the game.

[Hammerhorn]

I’m sorry but I completely disagree with OP SMN feels great it’s simple to grasp and we need a few jobs like that and it’s fun to play everyone is entitled to thier opinion though but this has been the best SMN iteration yet and I hope they do similar to other jobs.

[tearagion]

I’m sorry but I completely disagree with OP SMN feels great it’s simple to grasp and we need a few jobs like that and it’s fun to play everyone is entitled to thier opinion though but this has been the best SMN iteration yet and I hope they do similar to other jobs.

Why did yet another simple-to-grasp job being added have to come at the cost of a more complex leaning job that many people already enjoyed? The rework is unsuccessful because it completely failed to transfer any desirable attributes from old Summoner other than visual effects.

[Ransu]

Why did yet another simple-to-grasp job being added have to come at the cost of a more complex leaning job that many people already enjoyed? The rework is unsuccessful because it completely failed to transfer any desirable attributes from old Summoner other than visual effects.

Old SMN wasn't even remotely complex....It was clunky and annoying to play because of how you interacted with the egi's.

[tearagion]

Old SMN wasn't even remotely complex....It was clunky and annoying to play because of how you interacted with the egi's.

I see this a lot, but I've never seen any reasoning behind it. Could you please explain to me why you think it was simple?

[Ransu]

I see this a lot, but I've never seen any reasoning behind it. Could you please explain to me why you think it was simple?

Because it was? The only thing "complicated" about SMN was its opener when you're weaving a handful of oGCD's between egi assaults and I'd barely call that complicated. You just followed a 2 minute rotation that was broken up by phases with Bahamut, filler, firebird while using Ifrit 98% of the time....woo....

What exactly did you find about the job that was complex? Dot management? Damn I guess nearly all the jobs are complex then.

[tearagion]

Because it was? The only thing "complicated" about SMN was its opener when you're weaving a handful of oGCD's between egi assaults and I'd barely call that complicated. You just followed a 2 minute rotation that was broken up by phases with Bahamut, filler, firebird while using Ifrit 98% of the time....woo....

What exactly did you find about the job that was complex? Dot management? Damn I guess nearly all the jobs are complex then.

So it was simple because it had an optimal rotation in a vacuum to follow? Complexity is just pressing more buttons? If the job was still around I would encourage you to take it into higher end content to try to optimize it yourself. Unlike current SMN it was possible to run out of movement in SB and to a much lesser extent ShB, and your burst windows weren't handed to you on a silver platter (well, phoenix kind of was, but it was my personal least favourite of the Demis). There wasn't a pre-ordained and extremely straightforward way to deal with downtime, you didn't use your raid buff mindlessly off of cooldown, the list goes on. Even the DoTs you hold in so little regard could be shifted out of the standard to give you a Bio instant cast somewhere you needed it to move, and in scenarios like TEA phase 1 and 2 your rotation would be altered significantly in order to keep uptime on two main targets. EW SMN actively considers only when they can use Ifrit, which is melee for 1 gcd and casting for 1 or 2, and Garuda, which is 3s of casting and whether or not the boss will move within 15s (absolutely minuscule damage loss if they do move). Saying ShB SMN was simple in a much wider lens than FFXIV is fair, but compared to other FFXIV jobs and ESPECIALLY new SMN I'd argue it was complex.

Even all of that aside, taking ShB SMN into only "low" end content, say maximum alliance raids, the rotation was significantly more engaging because you had more than one resource to manage (that one persistent resource has also been simplified), and the margin for failure in the rotation was higher.

[rewd]

Different day, same shit.

Old SMN was clunky and annoying - ✓
Usual buzzwords for "I'm not good at this" and/or "This personally doesn't click with me, so it's clunky". Conveniently turning a blind eye to how Ifrit-Egi, Titan-Egi and Carbuncle are problematic.

Ackchyually old SMN was, like, totally easier than MIN - ✓
Usually coming from people that stop at Expert Roulette and genuinely (how, I don't know) think that there jobs in the game that instead are complex to play at an average level. In Endwalker, of all things.

It's a good thing that we have jobs you can play with a macro! I wish more jobs were like this because Netflix ain't gonna watch itself! - ✓
As we all know, SE is an indie company so asking them to design jobs that can cater to different crowds of players at the same time is probably a tad too much.

[aveyond-dreams]

Different day, same shit.

Old SMN was clunky and annoying - ✓
Usual buzzwords for "I'm not good at this" and/or "This personally doesn't click with me, so it's clunky". Conveniently turning a blind eye to how Ifrit-Egi, Titan-Egi and Carbuncle are problematic.

Ackchyually old SMN was, like, totally easier than MIN - ✓
Usually coming from people that stop at Expert Roulette and genuinely (how, I don't know) think that there jobs in the game that instead are complex to play at an average level. In Endwalker, of all things.

It's a good thing that we have jobs you can play with a macro! I wish more jobs were like this because Netflix ain't gonna watch itself! - ✓
As we all know, SE is an indie company so asking them to design jobs that can cater to different crowds of players at the same time is probably a tad too much.

1. Continuing to insult and belittle people's abilities when it comes to old SMN isn't helping its case much. In any case while those egis are somewhat annoying to use, I don't have much of a problem as long as I'm using them in melee range. These issues then disappear with the level 90 upgrade. So far I have not experienced ghosting with Carbuncle or the demis since launch but if that is the case for some then I hope those issues are resolved.

2. Views vary as to what made old Summoner complex, for me it was due to the fact that I felt like I was fighting more against my keyboard and the systems than the actual boss in front of me, combined with the bugs and glitches that were far more prominent and widespread then compared to now.

3. You can make a macro to play just about any job, in any case no jobs should not have huge barriers to entry like Summoner used to have. "Complex!" gameplay lovers don't get to have entire jobs to themselves, if you want complex gameplay and challenges then Savage and Ultimate are right there.