6.0 Summoner: Thoughts on an Unsuccessful Rework After 1 Month of Gameplay

[Ransu]

So it was simple because it had an optimal rotation in a vacuum to follow? Complexity is just pressing more buttons? If the job was still around I would encourage you to take it into higher end content to try to optimize it yourself. Unlike current SMN it was possible to run out of movement in SB and to a much lesser extent ShB, and your burst windows weren't handed to you on a silver platter (well, phoenix kind of was, but it was my personal least favourite of the Demis). There wasn't a pre-ordained and extremely straightforward way to deal with downtime, you didn't use your raid buff mindlessly off of cooldown, the list goes on. Even the DoTs you hold in so little regard could be shifted out of the standard to give you a Bio instant cast somewhere you needed it to move, and in scenarios like TEA phase 1 and 2 your rotation would be altered significantly in order to keep uptime on two main targets. EW SMN actively considers only when they can use Ifrit, which is melee for 1 gcd and casting for 1 or 2, and Garuda, which is 3s of casting and whether or not the boss will move within 15s (absolutely minuscule damage loss if they do move). Saying ShB SMN was simple in a much wider lens than FFXIV is fair, but compared to other FFXIV jobs and ESPECIALLY new SMN I'd argue it was complex.

Even all of that aside, taking ShB SMN into only "low" end content, say maximum alliance raids, the rotation was significantly more engaging because you had more than one resource to manage (that one persistent resource has also been simplified), and the margin for failure in the rotation was higher.

Your scenarios can literally apply to every job....That wasn't something unique to SMN and it didn't magically make its mostly straight forward and ridiculously long rotation somehow more complicated. I'm sorry to tell you this, but I repeat, old SMN wasn't all that complex. Clunky and stupid and an overall not great experience? Yes. Complex? No.

[Ransu]

Different day, same shit.

Old SMN was clunky and annoying - ✓
Usual buzzwords for "I'm not good at this" and/or "This personally doesn't click with me, so it's clunky". Conveniently turning a blind eye to how Ifrit-Egi, Titan-Egi and Carbuncle are problematic.

Ackchyually old SMN was, like, totally easier than MIN - ✓
Usually coming from people that stop at Expert Roulette and genuinely (how, I don't know) think that there jobs in the game that instead are complex to play at an average level. In Endwalker, of all things.

It's a good thing that we have jobs you can play with a macro! I wish more jobs were like this because Netflix ain't gonna watch itself! - ✓
As we all know, SE is an indie company so asking them to design jobs that can cater to different crowds of players at the same time is probably a tad too much.

I don't think you understand the definition of clunky....It doesn't translate to "I'm not good at this." Clunky translates to "this is poorly designed and not fun to play." That doesn't mean its hard to play.....because it wasn't. SMN i ShB was not remotely difficult to play, it just played terribly and the interactions with the egi attacks was simply not enjoyable.

[tearagion]

1. Continuing to insult and belittle people's abilities when it comes to old SMN isn't helping its case much. In any case while those egis are somewhat annoying to use, I don't have much of a problem as long as I'm using them in melee range. These issues then disappear with the level 90 upgrade. So far I have not experienced ghosting with Carbuncle or the demis since launch but if that is the case for some then I hope those issues are resolved.

2. Views vary as to what made old Summoner complex, for me it was due to the fact that I felt like I was fighting more against my keyboard and the systems than the actual boss in front of me, combined with the bugs and glitches that were far more prominent and widespread then compared to now.

3. You can make a macro to play just about any job, in any case no jobs should not have huge barriers to entry like Summoner used to have. "Complex!" gameplay lovers don't get to have entire jobs to themselves, if you want complex gameplay and challenges then Savage and Ultimate are right there.

sigh...

1. The fact that they gutted the whole pet system and some of the same issues still persist in-game on the current patch should be embarrassing.

2. Sounds like a personal problem as I had no issue piloting SMN before EW, it was objectively more complex due to more systems and those systems interacting.

3. So "Casual!" or "Simple!" gameplay lovers get to have entire jobs to themselves and "Complex!" gameplay lovers get to eat shit? Encounter complexity and Job complexity are two very different things that play off of each other to create more interesting gameplay, which is a strange thing to need to remind anyone of. This isn't a particularly compelling argument either when jobs like BLM can exist where the skill floor and the skill ceiling are both satisfying to reach, and far apart from each other.

[tearagion]

Your scenarios can literally apply to every job....That wasn't something unique to SMN and it didn't magically make its mostly straight forward and ridiculously long rotation somehow more complicated. I'm sorry to tell you this, but I repeat, old SMN wasn't all that complex. Clunky and stupid and an overall not great experience? Yes. Complex? No.

Apply it to new SMN then. Go ahead. Explain to me how hard it is to find 7-10 disjointed seconds a minute to cast. Explain how hard it is to hold your 2 phoenix festers for a minute to dump in the 2min raidbuffs. I'll wait.

[rewd]

I don't think you understand the definition of clunky....It doesn't translate to "I'm not good at this." Clunky translates to "this is poorly designed and not fun to play." That doesn't mean its hard to play.....because it wasn't. SMN i ShB was not remotely difficult to play, it just played terribly and the interactions with the egi attacks was simply not enjoyable.

The point really went over your head like that, uh...

[Ransu]

Apply it to new SMN then. Go ahead. Explain to me how hard it is to find 7-10 disjointed seconds a minute to cast. Explain how hard it is to hold your 2 phoenix festers for a minute to dump in the 2min raidbuffs. I'll wait.

Where have I said new SMN is complex? I don't particularly believe simple is a bad thing and minus some minor issues with new SMN I think its design is good. Could it use a bit more complexity? Sure. Does it need it? No.

The point really went over your head like that, uh...

You didn't have a point. "derr, he said clunky which means hes bad at game!!! I super smart cuz I handle super clunk.....imean complex job well!"

SMN was redesigned for a reason. The developers themselves felt that ShB was unintuitive and didn't flow correctly and that an entire redesign was necessary. I'm sorry that a job you enjoyed was changed. It always sucks when that happens, but sometimes its necessary. Is new SMN the best ever? No, it still needs work. Is it better than old SMN? Depends on the point of view. I personally think its significantly better just in general enjoyment. I didn't find old SMN fun. I found its rotation and general mechanics to be terrible and unintuitive with only its opener being enjoyable.

The argument of "oh he said it wasn't fun or it was unintuitive must mean he sucks at playing the job" is nothing more than a fallacy.

[Imoen]

snip

Slight correction, 2 GCDs for Ifrit because its a 1>2 combo, but ya. (Unless you are excluding the gap closer.)

Agreeing with you. While it wasn't as complex as some people make it seem. In comparison to this iteration it was. Ruin IV stacks to manage, dots to keep an eye on, timings for resets of tri disaster, dots played with festers potency meaning if you failed dots you failed your fester, lots more timings to consider, cutting Dreadwyrm short or playing it out, things to shift around, bane execution in aoe situation to avoid hard casting of dots, bringing out ruda in aoe, ifrit in single target, ya list goes on, lots more to keep track of and more to fumble on if you were not paying attention, none of which was particularly hard per se but, more to do and think about.

New one is "Will Ifrit screw me here?" for the most part.

Which honestly, I think all this is partially where my personal fun comes in. The ability to fail and get better. This new one doesn't leave a lot of room for that. Beyond Ifrit considerations during fights you are only dealing with the fight, almost no consideration to the job you are playing or what makes it unique, to me that's the tragedy. Not like I can realistically whip out a clutch Pheonix or something, he's locked on the clock. My Swiftcast is mostly down now, pocketing it for only res feels gross, so does hardcasting res. Having a boss mechanic flip out and having my big summon sitting there locking out my shield even though they should be gone right at that moment feels gross, also pushing that summon to get that shield feels gross too.

Idk if anyone else has had it, but if you like summon and a thing dies before it goes out, they just sit around forever not disappearing going "derp" and picking their nose. Anyway I don't have much to add to the conversation I've kinda poked in on the various threads.

[tearagion]

Where have I said new SMN is complex?

Well you didn't but you did say:

Your scenarios can literally apply to every job....

Which was why I asked.

SMN was redesigned for a reason. The developers themselves felt that ShB was unintuitive and didn't flow correctly and that an entire redesign was necessary. I'm sorry that a job you enjoyed was changed. It always sucks when that happens, but sometimes its necessary. Is new SMN the best ever? No, it still needs work. Is it better than old SMN? Depends on the point of view. I personally think its significantly better just in general enjoyment. I didn't find old SMN fun. I found its rotation and general mechanics to be terrible and unintuitive with only its opener being enjoyable.

This is obviously my opinion, but them thinking it needed, and then executing a rework isn't the problem at all. The problem is how much it diverged from old summoner, it's mostly unrecognizable in all aspects except visually. For them to show so little regard for what old Summoner players enjoyed is frankly insulting, and disheartening.

snip

Yeah, I rounded it down to 1 GCD because you're free to move after the second instant cast, your assessment is fair as well.

[Imoye]

The problem with the new design is that the job went from having been a dot class for EIGHT years to being something entirely different. I don't see how the devs could not foresee the massive backlash from summoner players that this would bring. They not only changed how the job works, but they also changed complexity from arguably the highest in the game to the lowest. Changing a job so fundamentally without deep dialogue with summoner players speaks to a complete lack of respect for those who main the job.

The new design is interesting, but ultimately it is way too easy to play and does not feel rewarding. There's no room for optimizing the rotation, and decision-making does not really exist.

It's a decent fundament, but it's not finished and should not have been released.

[aveyond-dreams]

The alleged "massive" backlash is a handful of people on the forums and reddit, so massive in this regard would refer moreso to their specific reaction rather than that of most people. For whatever reason, they refuse to approach things in a healthy way and try something new, instead choosing to relive the pain of losing old SMN over and over again on here I suppose. Of course the job could use a little extra, but both old and new SMN mains in game are better off with the current state of affairs compared to the hand-twisting mess of a job that SMN became over the years.

SMN mains were never united in what they wanted, some wanted to be actual Summoners while others did indeed want to be poison mages. Rather than continue twisting the job's identity further, they decided to bring things in line with its actual namesake while getting rid of the systems players had been complaining about for the past 8 years, which reached fever pitch with the SMN of 5.0-5.X.