Yoshi-P Statement on Player Feedback

[Avatre]

While I sympathize with Yoshi concerns and believe that people should not be insulting, I also see this too being taken out of context by a loud part of the community that can't handle a criticism unless you bring a paper convincing THEM that your concern and feedback is "valid". If anything though, I'm curious to see what the hell is happening on the JP side to see this type of commentary.

The problem is, a lot of the problems people are brining up, they don't say why it's a problem. Just that they are unhappy. If they actually went into detail about why it's a problem, then it gives the devs at least a starting point(when it's brought to their attention if the thread gets enough responses and isn't one of 500) to look at it and see the players concerns to be able to hold a team meeting to discuss it, and possible make changes towards what the players feel is a good direction. And I say feel, because it isn't always the best direction due to how it need to interact with hundreds, if not thousands, of other components.

[Melorie]

The problem is, a lot of the problems people are brining up, they don't say why it's a problem. Just that they are unhappy. If they actually went into detail about why it's a problem

Are you certain of that? Because I follow a lot of threads here, and in almost each one of them someone is actually explaining why they feel a certain thing isn't good. But sometimes even that isn't good enough for the part of the community that wants to dictate the discussion. Of course, some people are vague and whatever, but there's always these people. Besides, even Yoshi-P statement is about being rude or insulting, not vague. I'm not sure why you're here telling people how they should be doing their feedback.

This thread already highlights a glaring issue that people are negligent enough of their own behaviour and actions that they cannot make the distinction between them presenting their criticism as just that - A criticism, and something reasonably inferred as thinly veiled insults which serve no purpose.

I mean, yes, this happens, but the same could be said about the other side. Some people simply can't agree with any sort of negative thing regarding this game, and they will discuss a critic ad infinitum just to show that it's not "valid criticism", will act like you're some sort of insensible husk for criticizing something, will debate if it's something people can complain about or not, will try to find stuff into your tone they dislike instead of focusing on the content of your post, etc.

[Avatre]

Are you certain of that? Because I follow a lot of threads here, and in almost each one of them someone is actually explaining why they feel a certain thing isn't good. But sometimes even that isn't good enough for the part of the community that wants to dictate the discussion. Of course, some people are vague and whatever, but there's always these people. Besides, even Yoshi-P statement is about being rude or insulting, not vague. I'm not sure why you're here telling people how they should be doing their feedback.

I'm not telling people how they should, other than keeping it civil and not resorting to insulting. Almost all of the threads I've seen have had VERY thinly veiled insults in them. Not always by the OP, or even people who oppose them, but there are almost always the thinly veiled insults present somewhere in there.

As I said, back on page 1, negative feedback is probably the most important feedback a game can receive. BUT! Keep it civil.

[Kaurhz]

Are you certain of that? Because I follow a lot of threads here, and in almost each one of them someone is actually explaining why they feel a certain thing isn't good. But sometimes even that isn't good enough for the part of the community that wants to dictate the discussion. Of course, some people are vague and whatever, but there's always these people. Besides, even Yoshi-P statement is about being rude or insulting, not vague. I'm not sure why you're here telling people how they should be doing their feedback.



I mean, yes, this happens, but the same could be said about the other side. Some people simply can't agree with any sort of negative thing regarding this game, and they will discuss a critic ad infinitum just to show that it's not "valid criticism", will act like you're some sort of insensible husk for criticizing something, will debate if it's something people can complain about or not, will try to find stuff into your tone they dislike instead of focusing on the content of your post, etc.

Any opinion when posted on a forum has just as much place being critiqued as to what the original posters have critiquing the work of the developers. A vastly lost notion in this age as demonstrable of the vast myriad of people that deflect the critique of their outlook, opinion or 'fact' with nonsensical terms like 'white knight' or 'upset. Much like some people are incapable of handling criticisms of the game, there's an equal abundance of folk that cannot handle their own opinions being critiqued. - There's monumental levels of irony in this revelation. This is a forum, it serves for debating, and this debate is not limited to agreements, but rather also those with contrasting views.

In many cases when people post remarks with a disgusting tone it can undermine their own argument or opinion.

[Melorie]

Any opinion when posted on a forum has just as much place being critiqued as to what the original posters have critiquing the work of the developers. A vastly lost notion in this age as demonstrable of the vast myriad of people that deflect the critique of their outlook, opinion or 'fact' with nonsensical terms like 'white knight' or 'upset. Much like some people are incapable of handling criticisms of the game, there's an equal abundance of folk that cannot handle their own opinions being critiqued. - There's monumental levels of irony in this revelation. This is a forum, it serves for debating, and this debate is not limited to agreements, but rather also those with contrasting views.

In many cases when people post remarks with a disgusting tone it can undermine their own argument or opinion.

Personally, I dislike the term white-knight as well, and I don't disagree with you, of course there's always the other side that acts in the same way. I'm just saying that Yoshi statement is going to be used by people that can't handle any type of critic if it doesn't fit into their own standards, and anything that doesn't reach that isn't worthy discussing or isn't being discussed in the "right" way. Personally, for me, these people exist and are very loud, sometimes (depending on the patch) even more loud than the other side. I can see this happening on the forums, if you don't see that or don't agree with that... Ok? Each person with their own impressions.

I disagree with the tone, though. If you're insulting specific people, you're wrong, and I don't disagree… But I've seen people literally flame discussions simply because they didn't enjoy the tone of the person talking, like the dude that posted about job balance and people were hands down rude with them just because they used the word copium. IMO the community here is very sensitive with tone, they easily get upset if you don't use specific words, if you're sassy or even a bit ironic. It's easy to take this "your tone undermine your opinion" and turn into an "if you don't discuss things the same way I do, seeing from all the sides I do, you're wrong". Quickly, discussions turn into "you're just whining" and stuff like that.

[Soraki-Muppe]

Feedback is fine, calling the game shit is fine (if that is what you think), ranting about a part of the game is fine.
But going after devs is not fine, making it personal is not fine. The playerbase of some games even go after voiceacters if they do not like the character they voice and bully them from social platforms.

Yoshi-P and the devs are more open then pretty much every other mmorpg team out there, I for one hope that continues and is not ruined by childish bs like this that risk creating a hostile relationship.

[van_arn]

Honestly I’m more frustrated I can’t thank someone, so I’ll just offer my thanks to the aether.

[Kaurhz]

Personally, I dislike the term white-knight as well, and I don't disagree with you, of course there's always the other side that acts in the same way. I'm just saying that Yoshi statement is going to be used by people that can't handle any type of critic if it doesn't fit into their own standards, and anything that doesn't reach that isn't worthy discussing or isn't being discussed in the "right" way. I can see this happening on the forums, if you don't see that or don't agree with that... Ok? Whatever? Each person with their own impressions.

I disagree with the tone, though. If you're insulting specific people, you're wrong, and I don't disagree… But I've seen people literally flame discussions simply because they didn't enjoy the tone of the person talking, like the dude that posted about job balance and people were hands down rude with them just because they used the word copium. IMO the community here is very sensitive with tone, they easily get upset if you don't use specific words, if you're sassy or even a bit ironic. It's easy to take this "your tone undermine your opinion" and turn into an "if you don't discuss things the same way I do, seeing from all the sides I do, you're wrong". Quickly, discussions turn into "you're just whining" and stuff like that.

Course it is, but those that use this will also be in the minority. This is just called the negativity bias. Besides, it goes back to my original point; People reap what they sow.

The reason it undermines their own argument is typically because of the means with which they present their argument or criticism. People will only construe these instances as people being upset because they aren't getting their own way, with comments such as troll, bait or petty. Almost to where the discussion itself becomes secondary to ad-hominem contesting. Genuine and valid discussions and criticisms quickly devolve into meaningless debate which leads to thread upon thread to be created for the self-same topic, each doomed to devolve and eventually die for the same reason as the previous. It has very little to do with trying to police or indoctrinate people into my line of thinking (personally I couldn't care less if people debate the way I do), but rather just a concern, and a perfectly valid one in the context of keeping the discussion meaningful.

For clarity (as per the initial edit); make a statement such as "You're casual, you wouldn't understand" - See how long it takes for a remark such as that to derail an entire thread or topic of discussion into an "us vs them" situation.

[Snorky]

I do not think we can teach some people that wording statements or feedback in a certain way will actually get their point across and maybe even read or relayed to the dev team. So the only things we can do when someone comes into a thread and decides to be insulting and is not providing any feedback other than calling a dev lazy should be if ignored or called out for not being constructive.

[Semirhage]

Play AST then I suppose? It's super busy right now I can barely keep up with all its systems and responsibilities.

And you're gonna have to be more constructive with your feedback. You can't just say "1111111111" over and over and expect something different. imo the devs have done everything they can to spice up the different healers while still keeping some of them simple (WHM).

I've been on these forums for years.

1111111111111111 is all I have to say now, because I've *given* constructive feedback. A lot of it. In many ways, about several systems. I outlined exactly what was poorly designed about Stormblood lilies before they came out. In return, there was an entire expansion of "eh whatever, just try them out you just don't understand how good they are".

I've outlined what constitutes good game design, including paragraphs about what a reward system is and why current lilies aren't a reward. Explaining that the best kind of rewards encourage skillful play, guide players toward improvement, etc.

Current healer kits do NONE of these things particularly well, and move ever further away from them with every expansion. There's barely anything to heal. The downtime activity is less interactive than an idle clicker game. "If healers had more to do they'd just focus on damage and never heal anyone" is a massive crock of BS. Healers have more solid and entertaining design in all of gaming fiction, and people somehow manage to stay alive when their healers aren't spending 80% of their casts going Glare Glare Glarw Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare until they want their wrists to fall off.

This community could really benefit from cutting this high school drama theater production about healers being soooooooo wicked haaaaaaaard to play that anything more than Glare as downtime is too coooooooooomplicated maaaaaaaaaan.