Yoshi-P Statement on Player Feedback

[Melorie]

The problem is, a lot of the problems people are brining up, they don't say why it's a problem. Just that they are unhappy. If they actually went into detail about why it's a problem

Are you certain of that? Because I follow a lot of threads here, and in almost each one of them someone is actually explaining why they feel a certain thing isn't good. But sometimes even that isn't good enough for the part of the community that wants to dictate the discussion. Of course, some people are vague and whatever, but there's always these people. Besides, even Yoshi-P statement is about being rude or insulting, not vague. I'm not sure why you're here telling people how they should be doing their feedback.

This thread already highlights a glaring issue that people are negligent enough of their own behaviour and actions that they cannot make the distinction between them presenting their criticism as just that - A criticism, and something reasonably inferred as thinly veiled insults which serve no purpose.

I mean, yes, this happens, but the same could be said about the other side. Some people simply can't agree with any sort of negative thing regarding this game, and they will discuss a critic ad infinitum just to show that it's not "valid criticism", will act like you're some sort of insensible husk for criticizing something, will debate if it's something people can complain about or not, will try to find stuff into your tone they dislike instead of focusing on the content of your post, etc.

[Avatre]

Are you certain of that? Because I follow a lot of threads here, and in almost each one of them someone is actually explaining why they feel a certain thing isn't good. But sometimes even that isn't good enough for the part of the community that wants to dictate the discussion. Of course, some people are vague and whatever, but there's always these people. Besides, even Yoshi-P statement is about being rude or insulting, not vague. I'm not sure why you're here telling people how they should be doing their feedback.

I'm not telling people how they should, other than keeping it civil and not resorting to insulting. Almost all of the threads I've seen have had VERY thinly veiled insults in them. Not always by the OP, or even people who oppose them, but there are almost always the thinly veiled insults present somewhere in there.

As I said, back on page 1, negative feedback is probably the most important feedback a game can receive. BUT! Keep it civil.

[Gemina]

I'm not telling people how they should, other than keeping it civil and not resorting to insulting. Almost all of the threads I've seen have had VERY thinly veiled insults in them. Not always by the OP, or even people who oppose them, but there are almost always the thinly veiled insults present somewhere in there.

As I said, back on page 1, negative feedback is probably the most important feedback a game can receive. BUT! Keep it civil.

Negative feedback and constructive criticism are not the same thing. Like, at all. Negative feedback, as the name entails serves no purpose other than to be negative. The term is how you differentiate such a viewpoint from a positive one.

You can be ultra negative and still remain civil. You just won't be helping the situation much unless optimism reaches a point of naivety and pretentiousness.

[Kaurhz]

Are you certain of that? Because I follow a lot of threads here, and in almost each one of them someone is actually explaining why they feel a certain thing isn't good. But sometimes even that isn't good enough for the part of the community that wants to dictate the discussion. Of course, some people are vague and whatever, but there's always these people. Besides, even Yoshi-P statement is about being rude or insulting, not vague. I'm not sure why you're here telling people how they should be doing their feedback.



I mean, yes, this happens, but the same could be said about the other side. Some people simply can't agree with any sort of negative thing regarding this game, and they will discuss a critic ad infinitum just to show that it's not "valid criticism", will act like you're some sort of insensible husk for criticizing something, will debate if it's something people can complain about or not, will try to find stuff into your tone they dislike instead of focusing on the content of your post, etc.

Any opinion when posted on a forum has just as much place being critiqued as to what the original posters have critiquing the work of the developers. A vastly lost notion in this age as demonstrable of the vast myriad of people that deflect the critique of their outlook, opinion or 'fact' with nonsensical terms like 'white knight' or 'upset. Much like some people are incapable of handling criticisms of the game, there's an equal abundance of folk that cannot handle their own opinions being critiqued. - There's monumental levels of irony in this revelation. This is a forum, it serves for debating, and this debate is not limited to agreements, but rather also those with contrasting views.

In many cases when people post remarks with a disgusting tone it can undermine their own argument or opinion.

[Melorie]

Any opinion when posted on a forum has just as much place being critiqued as to what the original posters have critiquing the work of the developers. A vastly lost notion in this age as demonstrable of the vast myriad of people that deflect the critique of their outlook, opinion or 'fact' with nonsensical terms like 'white knight' or 'upset. Much like some people are incapable of handling criticisms of the game, there's an equal abundance of folk that cannot handle their own opinions being critiqued. - There's monumental levels of irony in this revelation. This is a forum, it serves for debating, and this debate is not limited to agreements, but rather also those with contrasting views.

In many cases when people post remarks with a disgusting tone it can undermine their own argument or opinion.

Personally, I dislike the term white-knight as well, and I don't disagree with you, of course there's always the other side that acts in the same way. I'm just saying that Yoshi statement is going to be used by people that can't handle any type of critic if it doesn't fit into their own standards, and anything that doesn't reach that isn't worthy discussing or isn't being discussed in the "right" way. Personally, for me, these people exist and are very loud, sometimes (depending on the patch) even more loud than the other side. I can see this happening on the forums, if you don't see that or don't agree with that... Ok? Each person with their own impressions.

I disagree with the tone, though. If you're insulting specific people, you're wrong, and I don't disagree… But I've seen people literally flame discussions simply because they didn't enjoy the tone of the person talking, like the dude that posted about job balance and people were hands down rude with them just because they used the word copium. IMO the community here is very sensitive with tone, they easily get upset if you don't use specific words, if you're sassy or even a bit ironic. It's easy to take this "your tone undermine your opinion" and turn into an "if you don't discuss things the same way I do, seeing from all the sides I do, you're wrong". Quickly, discussions turn into "you're just whining" and stuff like that.

[Kaurhz]

Personally, I dislike the term white-knight as well, and I don't disagree with you, of course there's always the other side that acts in the same way. I'm just saying that Yoshi statement is going to be used by people that can't handle any type of critic if it doesn't fit into their own standards, and anything that doesn't reach that isn't worthy discussing or isn't being discussed in the "right" way. I can see this happening on the forums, if you don't see that or don't agree with that... Ok? Whatever? Each person with their own impressions.

I disagree with the tone, though. If you're insulting specific people, you're wrong, and I don't disagree… But I've seen people literally flame discussions simply because they didn't enjoy the tone of the person talking, like the dude that posted about job balance and people were hands down rude with them just because they used the word copium. IMO the community here is very sensitive with tone, they easily get upset if you don't use specific words, if you're sassy or even a bit ironic. It's easy to take this "your tone undermine your opinion" and turn into an "if you don't discuss things the same way I do, seeing from all the sides I do, you're wrong". Quickly, discussions turn into "you're just whining" and stuff like that.

Course it is, but those that use this will also be in the minority. This is just called the negativity bias. Besides, it goes back to my original point; People reap what they sow.

The reason it undermines their own argument is typically because of the means with which they present their argument or criticism. People will only construe these instances as people being upset because they aren't getting their own way, with comments such as troll, bait or petty. Almost to where the discussion itself becomes secondary to ad-hominem contesting. Genuine and valid discussions and criticisms quickly devolve into meaningless debate which leads to thread upon thread to be created for the self-same topic, each doomed to devolve and eventually die for the same reason as the previous. It has very little to do with trying to police or indoctrinate people into my line of thinking (personally I couldn't care less if people debate the way I do), but rather just a concern, and a perfectly valid one in the context of keeping the discussion meaningful.

For clarity (as per the initial edit); make a statement such as "You're casual, you wouldn't understand" - See how long it takes for a remark such as that to derail an entire thread or topic of discussion into an "us vs them" situation.

[UkcsAlias]

For clarity (as per the initial edit); make a statement such as "You're casual, you wouldn't understand" - See how long it takes for a remark such as that to derail an entire thread or topic of discussion into an "us vs them" situation.

I can give a team fortress 2 example on this regarding the pyro (which since its design has been problematic in balance). The pyro has multiple tresholds in skill vs effectivity:
- Lowest skill: very effective at almost no effort (W+M1)
- Mid skill: Starts to learn airblast, but stops using fire (effective against other pyros, mostly useless otherwise)
- Higher skill: Knows how to airblast while going in like W+M1, and starts flanking (decently effective, still easily hardcountered). Most important, starts using the shotgun (becomes effective at range)
- Top skill: Knows how to exploit the flanks and estimate player behaviour (suddenly becomes a monster that is problematic to handle for most of the players - but against equaly skilled, its better to go for a diffirent class as its simply more effective)

The problem here is that the pyro alway had limited attack range. But very high damage vs effort. The skilled actions are difficult to perform (making most people unable to use them properly). They have tried many things, but in the end, the pyro became only a defensive tool in pub games to mostly disrupt spies. They simply never managed to give the pyro good capabilities in ranged situations. Although this was part of its design, its also why its still a very broken class.

Casuals simply complain about the class being OP here, because they simply dont know how it works. Which for other classes is clearly visible. So there is a good reason for them derailing, because details start to matter in those cases. But when such case can show up, there is definitely some issue going on that probably goes even further (why is there such barricade in which you can start to seperate us and them?). Anyone that can find such issue therefor should mention it, as its not just the skilled that will benefit from that info, it helps those lower skilled ones from becoming better, and maybe even help devs at preventing that barricade from acting like one.

May i note that 1 of the biggest pyro issues was not just the class, but the way the server handled fire hitreg. A situation that ranked players knew for very long (the backburner was banned for a reason), yet took like 7 years to get fixed.