Yoshi-P Statement on Player Feedback

[Gameovers]

People just need to be decent human beings and express whatever issues they have in a matter that doesn't insult anyone. But that in itself is a hard ask cause people think emotionally and not with logic 90% of the time.

[Zabuza]

Doesn't help that some people are blissfully unaware of the effect their words have in situations like this. When someone puts their heart, soul, and several years into a project, only to be told by people that it sucks, and that person should never work on a project again, it's soul crushing.

I know this because I went through it. I was torn a new one by the crowd when I submitted my years long project, told I should probably give it up. So I did, not wanting to go through that again. At the time, the project was my pride and joy. Looking back on it logically, yes there were flaws in my project. If the reviewers criticized constructively instead of looking to break me, I'd have probably had a different reaction. But instead, any time I try to continue that work, I struggle, overthink about how to make it perfect, and end up giving up. I normally take insults in stride, but it's different when it's something you've poured yourself into for years.

We can also look at the WoW situation. I'm not saying the devs aren't at how fault for how it had been going downhill since BfA, but the community sucked the soul out of them, and the devs eventually turned adversarial towards their own community. Never did the community stop to think what their relentless attacks on the devs were doing. No matter what they submitted, it was wrong and sucked. After a certain amount of times being told that, it's not unlikely to either lose passion for the work, or give up entirely.

So yes, please do consider your words carefully. We do want the game to improve, but we don't want to suck the soul out of the devs to the point this game starts rolling downhill like WoW.

[Nyarlha]

It doesn't help that some people seem to have a parasocial relationship with the game or the role/job they play.

In the end, every change, every design choice, is up to the devs. If they decided to go one way with an element of gameplay or a job, acting like they kicked your dog on the forums isn't going to change anything. At some point, you have to cut your losses or you're just wasting energy being so emotionnaly invested into something that won't change.

We have people here that have been complaining for years about certain things. Things that obviously the devs have no intention of changing or they'd have done it by now. At some point, I have to ask : what are you actually expecting?

[Baxcel]

It doesn't help that some people seem to have a parasocial relationship with the game or the role/job they play.

In the end, every change, every design choice, is up to the devs. If they decided to go one way with an element of gameplay or a job, acting like they kicked your dog on the forums isn't going to change anything. At some point, you have to cut your losses or you're just wasting energy being so emotionnaly invested into something that won't change.

We have people here that have been complaining for years about certain things. Things that obviously the devs have no intention of changing or they'd have done it by now. At some point, I have to ask : what are you actually expecting?

I'd like to point out the double standard here.. Indeed people have been complaining about things for ages.. let's take DRK specifically for this.. Living Dead as been ignored since release with no comment, while other invulns have changed.. removal of locking in place with Holmgang for example..

More recently we had people interview YoshiP about some DRK changes.. his response was that "No one had mentioned that to him before" when we look at the 200+ DRK mega thread where it's been mentioned COUNTLESS times.

So it comes down to two thing.. either the devs read the forums and never report it to YoshiP or the devs don't read the forums at all. Either way they are lying about feedback that has been given and that's just as bad as insulting the people who tried their hardest to give honest feedback

[Nyarlha]

I'd like to point out the double standard here.. Indeed people have been complaining about things for ages.. let's take DRK specifically for this.. Living Dead as been ignored since release with no comment, while other invulns have changed.. removal of locking in place with Holmgang for example..

More recently we had people interview YoshiP about some DRK changes.. his response was that "No one had mentioned that to him before" when we look at the 200+ DRK mega thread where it's been mentioned COUNTLESS times.

So it comes down to two thing.. either the devs read the forums and never report it to YoshiP or the devs don't read the forums at all. Either way they are lying about feedback that has been given and that's just as bad as insulting the people who tried their hardest to give honest feedback

From what I remember from this Media Tour interview, the "we had no clue about it" part was concerning Blood Weapon and not LD. At this point I'm pretty sure they are fine with LD situation as a design choice and won't ever change it.

As for the Blood Weapon situation, it kinda feels like (and the interviews during Media Tour where mrHappy asked about MCH and ping issues too) they are completely ignorant of high ping issues. Like, the feedback probably gets to them, they try to test it out while sitting on top of the server and they go like "uh, no, this is fine". Which is, I agree, not excusable.

[Deceptus]

From what I remember from this Media Tour interview, the "we had no clue about it" part was concerning Blood Weapon and not LD. At this point I'm pretty sure they are fine with LD situation as a design choice and won't ever change it.

As for the Blood Weapon situation, it kinda feels like (and the interviews during Media Tour where mrHappy asked about MCH and ping issues too) they are completely ignorant of high ping issues. Like, the feedback probably gets to them, they try to test it out while sitting on top of the server and they go like "uh, no, this is fine". Which is, I agree, not excusable.

And that right there shows the extreme disconnect between the developers and the players.

They're fine with Living Dead. Healers other than White Mages? Despise it with a passion.

It's a desperation move aimed at discrediting someone's criticism. It's a fallacy called "Appeal to accomplishment" and it's a type of logical fallacy, so their argument is immediately considered invalid.

Appeal to Accomplishment mixed in with some Appeal to Authority as well.

Appeal to Accomplishment (also known as: appeal to success)

Description: When the argument being made is sheltered from criticism based on the level of accomplishment of the one making the argument. A form of this fallacy also occurs when arguments are evaluated on the accomplishments, or success, of the person making the argument, rather than on the merits of the argument itself.

Appeal to Authority

You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus. Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence. However, it is entirely possible that the opinion of a person or institution of authority is wrong; therefore the authority that such a person or institution holds does not have any intrinsic bearing upon whether their claims are true or not.

[Kaurhz]

And that right there shows the extreme disconnect between the developers and the players.

They're fine with Living Dead. Healers other than White Mages? Despise it with a passion.



Appeal to Accomplishment mixed in with some Appeal to Authority as well.

nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence - Ad-hominem attacks on work ethic are neither, but mere conjecture. This applies well to the myriad of server issues. Both for and against the developers. Particularly when such comments are being made that they do not care about the state of their servers, when the myriad of updates, including the addition of new servers since as long as SB. In this instance I would be willing to side with the developers on the basis of historical account when it comes to server issues, than some conspiracist on the forums that strongly believes they aren't adding servers simply because they "Just don't care". I'm not going to side with someone on the forum for the sake of it until someone has either empirical evidence to suggest otherwise e.g. error 2002

But whilst we're on the topic of these. I would first and foremost point out argumentum ad logicam. The argument itself or the premise of the argument may have been badly adopted but the conclusion that 'critiquing the character or morals of a developer as it pertains to their work ethic, within a field that they may or may not have any experience in bad faith comments' is a perfectly valid conclusion. This equally neatly ties into the Ad-hominem fallacy. Wherein people are more inclined to attack the character, morals or ethos of an individual rather than the argument - Or in this case rather than simply addressing the underlying issue which is neither effort, nor work ethos but simply a matter of design philosophies. Which is arguably more of an ongoing trend with the development team than simple "laziness or content cuts".

[kpxmanifesto]

However, it is entirely possible that the opinion of a person or institution of authority is wrong; therefore the authority that such a person or institution holds does not have any intrinsic bearing upon whether their claims are true or not.

Precisely. That's why the whole "you need to be an expert on something to have an opinion on something" argument falls flat.

[Semirhage]

Healers offered hundreds of pages of polite feedback for years. The gameplay is now 11111111111111111. If you want polite feedback, don't respond to persistent polite feedback with "nope, you're getting 11111111111111 and you're gonna like it or get out". You wouldn't accept that BS on YOUR main job, so miss me with that plea for genteel criticism. You guys don't play any classes other than DPS and it -shows-.

[Snorky]

Healers offered hundreds of pages of polite feedback for years. The gameplay is now 11111111111111111. If you want polite feedback, don't respond to persistent polite feedback with "nope, you're getting 11111111111111 and you're gonna like it or get out". You wouldn't accept that BS on YOUR main job, so miss me with that plea for genteel criticism. You guys don't play any classes other than DPS and it -shows-.

Do you think it's your right to be nasty to people you never met? Because your comment shows you have no idea how to give constructive feed back. The very minute you start insulting you have lost. That's reality, people will shut down anything you have to say after you insult them. So all you are doing at that point is being obnoxious.