RIP MNK 1.x - 5.x

[ssunny2008]

Hello my guy...

Anatman IS pointless. Just form shift. That MINIMAL gain over a long fight IS pointless. You can argue, but it is never going to make thta much of a difference.

Why should i argue about that? I read the skill at its rework and the first thing in my mind was "ok, bye anatman". It might be useful in 1% of all content so.
But gratz that you´ve found that out by asking ppl here.

Also, just because you don't like what I am saying, doesn't make it an invalid point, get off your high horse yeah. A lot of you think you are some kind gods at this game, but seemingly never played anything else. You don't know how this game can be better because you don't know how these kinds of games work, YOU are in fact the inexperienced one.

You make you own points invalid by claiming controversial things and being unexperienced with classes you actually want to rework. You don´t even play the endgame much, the only thing in this game where a good performance is needed. Again, don´t play positionals on MNK?! What´s the point to ignore them in braindead content aka dungeons, bozja, everything in the daily-roulette, treasure maps, fates...

And imagine i´ve more gaming experience than the tripled age of this game. I do even like sitting on my high horse, together with my pack of skills, fast class and mechanic understanding and overall gameplay experience.
But of course, you´re right. I don´t know how to make this game better for lazy players. To create a 1 button game with rewards for free and animations kids find "super-duper-UwU-tastic" is under my dignity. I´m a real gamer, someone who learns classes and mechanics, someone who picks the challenge, someone who works for his rewards and someone who can accept, that not every class is made for everyone.
I can´t be proud to stay on dumb downed meta classes, or to show others my cool mount i´ve "achieved" with wall to wall gangbang, unsynched runs or while i got carried by other players or the content itself.

Your whole view is not grounded in reality, it is simply idealistic thinking. The REALITY is you are in no control over whether what a tank may decide to do, but what they do affects your damage. That is a designflaw for monk more than ny other as every ability is a positional. Reality says the tank doesn't care about your ideals, the tank will play how he wants to play. And don't come with this, "BuT iT IsNt SaVaGe!", cmon even in the normals people want to do some damage.

How about dancer? Are you sure your dancepartner plays well? Or bard with his songs? What about ANY other raidbuffs so far? MNK, RDM, DRG, NIN, AST?
What if a healer forgets to heal? What if your stackpartner doesn´t stack? What if you´re the bad guy, who lies at the ground and the group is wiping because of it?

Questions over questions and one simple answer... IT`S A TEAMGAME.... and shit happens. If you don´t want to rely on other players, don´t play a MMORPG. (MM means Massiv Multiplayer!!!)

Where does the "spin 2 win tank" belief even stem from? These posts bringing them up greatly exaggerate their uncommon occurrence and act like it isn't anything more than a mild inconvenience so long as they aren't griefing. Even if that was the case, that's a problem with that specific player, not a problem with a feature on an entirely unrelated role.

I´ve had one time someone in syrcus tower who did that on purpose. Spamming the ranged attack to stay high in aggro and moving in a circle. But seriously i can even understand the borderness to play such content over and over again especially since the tank dumbdowns, so who cares? Even as OT in savage i run my own circles, because you had nothing to do this tier. Man that was funny together with my old dancer... sometimes i even got dancebuddy.
And at the first SHB instance, i went afk to make a cup of tea. When i came back, i still tanked the endboss. Insane experience....

It happens once in ages to get such a guy, the most others who struggle a bit are newcomers. But if you teach them, all is fine. Ppl just exaggerating things like always, and of course it´s always the others or the games fault.

[Masekase_Hurricane]

Why should i argue about that? I read the skill at its rework and the first thing in my mind was "ok, bye anatman". It might be useful in 1% of all content so.
But gratz that you´ve found that out by asking ppl here.

As much as I love monk I dont think the devs really know what they actually want from it. I mean a good 80% of skills that have been added have been either situational or borderline useless(I mean on release of new skills not after patches/overhauls) . Don't get me wrong I love monk and it's still my main but i'd just like a fresher coat of paint on the class. Saying that I think this update might be that as it does sound interesting.

[ssunny2008]

As much as I love monk I dont think the devs really know what they actually want from it. I mean a good 80% of skills that have been added have been either situational or borderline useless(I mean on release of new skills not after patches/overhauls) . Don't get me wrong I love monk and it's still my main but i'd just like a fresher coat of paint on the class. Saying that I think this update might be that as it does sound interesting.

I know what you mean and as i´ve said, i´m ok with the new mechanic, but still sceptical. Imo i just don´t see the need why raptor positionals have to go. MNK seems less busier than it is now. And i would still prefer something new. At any reworks it´s in my brain like "just another gauge". SMN got the same... you get your crystals, press 1 button. We´ve this on any classes and either you collect some points with your rotation, you use 3 skills in an order or in case of WHM, you´re infight.
I don´t know why SE lost their creativity. Stuff like mudra, the old AST cards, positionals or different pets for different circumstances has been great.

[wereotter]

I know what you mean and as i´ve said, i´m ok with the new mechanic, but still sceptical. Imo i just don´t see the need why raptor positionals have to go. MNK seems less busier than it is now. And i would still prefer something new. At any reworks it´s in my brain like "just another gauge". SMN got the same... you get your crystals, press 1 button. We´ve this on any classes and either you collect some points with your rotation, you use 3 skills in an order or in case of WHM, you´re infight.
I don´t know why SE lost their creativity. Stuff like mudra, the old AST cards, positionals or different pets for different circumstances has been great.

I think all of us kind of felt that same thing. Monks in most games just didn't have a lot for them to go off of when creating new job skills and identities. So it's fair to have them look at the job and just think monk hit hard and... uhhh...?

I kind of had thought Tifa's mechanics from FF7R would have been a decent, if boring, add to the game. Build up stacks of a skill, like how we used to with greased lightning, then spend those on a high power combo, think like the gunbreaker ammo combo, except with monk you would have to have all three stacks of resources to do all three moves. But even that's kind of dull. So I'm glad they tried to figure out how to make Sabin's mechanic work. Just need to see more before I can get an opinion of if this is a good update to the job or just another failed attempt....

but at least this is a bigger attempt than they've really ever made.

[Shurrikhan]

Riddle of Earth is a stack system, so I'm not sure what you're asking for... you get three stacks of it currently.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I just meant removing the button-bloat and weave cost of RoE in favor of a passively generated stack system for which each stack (to a max of, say, 3 stored) forgives a missed positional. That to me would be a sensible change, far more so than Raptor's lost positionals, which were neither needed nor happen to solve anything (since you'd still be dependent on lucky timing).

Personally, I feel that the 3 charges of RoE, each lasting a whopping 10s, is already highly overkill, but I'd have no issue with a faint measure of lenience that could then actually combat unexpected mob-spinning.

[Rika007]

I don´t know why SE lost their creativity. Stuff like mudra, the old AST cards, positionals or different pets for different circumstances has been great.

I don't think it's a question of SE losing their creativity, it's them listening to feedback, and the feedback on those things you mentioned hasn't been overwhelming positive. Even if you remove say the more 'casual opinions' shall we say and just focus on like the raiding community.

Mudra's: hated due to their ping reliance, causing many of the moves to just be outright ignored (Raiton didn't have a reason to be used for 6 years in this game up until the rework dropped). They tried to up the speed of the oGCD mudra system but they never could get it to the point where high ping players could play it optimally.

Old Ast cards: disliked due to the balance and meta issues they helped create. They tried on several occasions to even the numbers, nerfing the balance, reworking spear. But nothing ever topped the spread balance meta.

Positional: multiple problems that many people had with raids where positionals became exceedingly difficult so much to the point that any time an omni positional boss is dropped in a savage tier it makes every melee shout with glee. Even after numerous additions like stacks of true north, earths reply, and removing the requirements for critical abilities like trick attack, many players just have hated the need for them.

I don't mean to diminish those who liked these mechanics, but I'm seeing a lot of talk that SE has lost creativity and simply given up and bowed down to casual player bases here, and simply put it isn't true. Every system that has seen a big change in Shawdowbringer and Endwalker is the result of SE having gone through years of trial and error and player feedback and them coming up with something to try and address it, and that hasn't just been casual player feedback. It's been feedback from savage players, and the bigger voices in the games influencer area.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't mean to diminish those who liked these mechanics, but I'm seeing a lot of talk that SE has lost creativity and simply given up and bowed down to casual player bases here, and simply put it isn't true. Every system that has seen a big change in Shawdowbringer and Endwalker is the result of SE having gone through years of trial and error and player feedback and them coming up with something to try and address it, and that hasn't just been casual player feedback. It's been feedback from savage players, and the bigger voices in the games influencer area.

It takes damn near malicious compliance to arrive at many of those "answers" to player feedback, though...

"Hi, I'd like my kit not to be unnecessarily clunky or lacking in any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role," for instance =/= "I'd sure love to lose most of my uniqueness and merely exchange one manner of clunkiness only for another (that is even worse at lower ping) only to still lack any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role."

[Rika007]

It takes damn near malicious compliance to arrive at many of those "answers" to player feedback, though...

"Hi, I'd like my kit not to be unnecessarily clunky or lacking in any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role," for instance =/= "I'd sure love to lose most of my uniqueness and merely exchange one manner of clunkiness only for another (that is even worse at lower ping) only to still lack any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role."

I assume you are talking about the NIN changes seeing as the only part of my post that referenced Ping was the Mudra rework. If not you can ignore my response.

Your acting like they literally just table flipped in response to the first request of a rework and that was it, when we both know that isn't true. In terms of the Mudra's if I'm remembering my patches correctly it was 6 and a half years between initial NIN release to the GCD Mudra rework of Shadowbringers, and between that there was either 3 or 4 attempts to speed up the workings of the Mudra in different patches (along with the actual changes to Ninja as a job each expansion). Maybe that doesn't seem much like to you, and maybe the fact that the end result doesn't please you makes all those attempts mean absolutely nothing, but the dev team did try to make honest attempts at fixing it. (And this goes for every other change they have done that I listed above).


As for lacking any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role... uhhh.... what? Ninja is literally the highest overall rDPS on average on that site not to be mentioned over all 4 fights of the recent savage tier right now. It's a freaking competitive job.

[Sqwall]

I assume you are talking about the NIN changes seeing as the only part of my post that referenced Ping was the Mudra rework. If not you can ignore my response.

Your acting like they literally just table flipped in response to the first request of a rework and that was it, when we both know that isn't true. In terms of the Mudra's if I'm remembering my patches correctly it was 6 and a half years between initial NIN release to the GCD Mudra rework of Shadowbringers, and between that there was either 3 or 4 attempts to speed up the workings of the Mudra in different patches (along with the actual changes to Ninja as a job each expansion). Maybe that doesn't seem much like to you, and maybe the fact that the end result doesn't please you makes all those attempts mean absolutely nothing, but the dev team did try to make honest attempts at fixing it. (And this goes for every other change they have done that I listed above).


As for lacking any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role... uhhh.... what? Ninja is literally the highest overall rDPS on average on that site not to be mentioned over all 4 fights of the recent savage tier right now. It's a freaking competitive job.

Well said.

[Mikey_R]

While I know I was one for keeping all positionals, however, at this point they probably aren't going to be adding them, so I will wait until I get my hands on the job myself and try it out. I will then form my conclusion as to whether it was a good idea or not.

Chances are, I'm still going to be hitting the raptor positionals just out of pure habit, so it should be easy to tell if the removal was needed.