RIP MNK 1.x - 5.x

[Masekase_Hurricane]

I think all of us kind of felt that same thing. Monks in most games just didn't have a lot for them to go off of when creating new job skills and identities. So it's fair to have them look at the job and just think monk hit hard and... uhhh...?

I kind of had thought Tifa's mechanics from FF7R would have been a decent, if boring, add to the game. Build up stacks of a skill, like how we used to with greased lightning, then spend those on a high power combo, think like the gunbreaker ammo combo, except with monk you would have to have all three stacks of resources to do all three moves. But even that's kind of dull. So I'm glad they tried to figure out how to make Sabin's mechanic work. Just need to see more before I can get an opinion of if this is a good update to the job or just another failed attempt....

but at least this is a bigger attempt than they've really ever made.

Too be honest i'd have been happy with this skill changes to this at x lvl. Monk doesnt need much and what it's had from ARR works. As for skills that slow u down/niche skills like six sided star i'd rather just have a weaker skill than a penalty.

While I know I was one for keeping all positionals, however, at this point they probably aren't going to be adding them, so I will wait until I get my hands on the job myself and try it out. I will then form my conclusion as to whether it was a good idea or not.

Chances are, I'm still going to be hitting the raptor positionals just out of pure habit, so it should be easy to tell if the removal was needed.

LMAO I can see myself still doing the positionals too

[ssunny2008]

I don't think it's a question of SE losing their creativity, it's them listening to feedback, and the feedback on those things you mentioned hasn't been overwhelming positive.

They do lost their creativity, no matter if you call it based on feedback on not.

About the named things... of course not everyone might like them, but they´re / have been unique. That players were never able to make real use of them is up to 2 points. Either the players were just not good enough or the content failed.
The perfect example in MMO´s is the good old range advantage. And that´s why normally melees have a higher damage scaling, cc and more stuff to protect themselves, meanwhile ranges have support utilities and kiting possibilities. I miss both pretty much and only phys. ranges has less DPS meanwhile SAM is still broken for whatever reason. And yes, i can´t count the roleskills really... they´re pretty useless and the content doesn´t really force their use. (Of course i use them, but common... you know what i mean.)


Anyway, the thing is that SE, or at least some voices here, use "balancing" as a major excuse. But what balancing do we have and what do we actually need? We´ve lost a lot MMO standard stuff and even unique stuff SE created by themself for the "DPS race". There is not much left next to it on any class. We don´t have much random encounters, but strict boss pattern and nothing which really fears me in any fight. When i tank i can heal myself and have invul, when i´m DPS i´m ready for the heal-aoe. If anything... i´m more feared of my group members, because if someone stay 1mm too far left or right, he´s going to die and the following mechanic is going to kill us.... or maybe not if we´re lucky to get something like the lightning spread instead of the fire stack in E11s.

Ppl always has been more like "This is useless, pls change, get ride of it, whatever...". Why not claim "Hey SE, the skill is a bit out of place, why not making use of it in further content?"
And if ppl play games like this a long time, they get better for sure, but they even stuck in their comfortzone. At first they´re excited to play a new boss etc, then they´re getting used to it and finally fckd up if the boss isn´t that positional friendly or that someone else got a better parse, "just because of its class" or whatever. It could be even a thing, that one bossfight is bad for melees and the other bad for ranged. But ppl don´t see it, they keep remember the bad stuff obviously. Especially "savage only" players might think more that way, because they want to optimize their stuff, will always use the actual meta etc.

What i want to say is, that a lot of feedback even comes without many thoughts or acceptance behind it, which brought us to SHB. SE doesn´t try things anymore and copy & paste pretty much everything, meanwhile players are so excited about it. For real?
The homogenization of classes is real, noone out there can deny that. The content is wall to wall bang, stack spread etc... I really had hopes with the E5s-E8s Raids, when the OT had something to do and stuff like silence, stun and esuna had some use. Only DPS classes had nothing to do but being DPS classes next to the raidwide mechanics. But the current tier proofed my hopes to be wrong.

SE clearly gave up on everything, just to give any class a strict rotation + a gauge and something like a finisher or extraheal with it. Even the raids needs to be "perfect timed" and dungeons are just visual reworks over and over again. And don´t forget that pretty much all raidbuffs come with 60/120s next, just to keep sure that you don´t have to be a pro to aline them.

As next i don´t mind any "casual opinion", but they should make sense. And in kind of positionals i´ve even stated somewhere ago, that i wouldn´t mind if SE get ride of positionals on DRG or NIN, maybe even Reaper now. Let the positional heavy MNK as it is, SAM as something between, give NIN a trait to cause more damage from behind and get ride of that one "from the side" skill. On top get ride of positionals on DRG and Reaper, keep focus on the jump mechanics and ghouls and give them extended melee range with their long weapons. I´m pretty sure everyone would get catered with it. But no... we still stuck on our rotations and this gauge.
There i don´t even get guys like "we need extended mechanics etc., stuff which is better than positionals" and they say "hurray" to a blitz gauge alias to the same as before with a finisher button, which has a sick animation.


The game could be more and had / has a lot of unique stuff compared to other MMORPG´s. But given to the years of feedback or not, SE is going the easy way. The visuals are awesome, but that´s it and i seriously can´t understand, why the gameplay is getting dumbdowned and not expanded. And what i don´t get is, that players these days don´t expect something more from the devs and welcome simple rundowns.

(And seriously, the most influencer are more of a pain for any game than anything else. Either the audience is like "Oh yes, he´s so right." or that guy is just talking whatever his community wants to hear for more followers. Ppl should wake up and not just spam what others want to hear / what they´ve heard.)

[Shurrikhan]

I assume you are talking about the NIN changes seeing as the only part of my post that referenced Ping was the Mudra rework. If not you can ignore my response.

There are a number of other jobs, such as SMN, MCH, WAR, and DRK, who were changed for similar reasons, and to similarly mixed results. Some parts of those changes were positive, but oftentimes the bulk was only tangentially relevant to the issues people had with the job or were sold as a solution to X (say, MCH ping dependence, DRK DA spam, or pet unresponsiveness) that merely replaced one issue with a close relative (Hypercharge instead of Wildfire, Edge instead of DA, pet abilities locking you out of other actions and, initially, ghosting, rather than having pet action queues, etc., etc.).

Your acting like they literally just table flipped in response to the first request of a rework and that was it, when we both know that isn't true.

No, I'm not. Were that the case, each "table flip" wouldn't have taken 4 to 24 months when so many of the perceived issues were well noted in pre-patch.

In terms of the Mudra's if I'm remembering my patches correctly it was 6 and a half years between initial NIN release to the GCD Mudra rework of Shadowbringers, and between that there was either 3 or 4 attempts to speed up the workings of the Mudra in different patches (along with the actual changes to Ninja as a job each expansion).

Link? There was no palpable difference on the users' end from which to assume that the only way to properly allow mudras to queue was to put them on the GCD, whereas there was an example (HW-era Empyreal Arrow, a weaponskill which incurred but did not respect the GCD and could therefore be weaved much like a oGCD) of a skill being queueable even as a second action within a given GCD gap. We already had an example of a way to let sequential mudras queue properly and not create an imbalance between low- and high-ping players that nonetheless would not force them onto the GCD. Instead, we merely forced the time it takes to actually cast each mudra to that of mid-high-ping player and pulled it onto the GCD... and then squashed an entire rotational element (Shadowfang) into a Sonic Break-lite to make up the difference in effective rotational uptime?

Maybe that doesn't seem much like to you, and maybe the fact that the end result doesn't please you makes all those attempts mean absolutely nothing, but the dev team did try to make honest attempts at fixing it. (And this goes for every other change they have done that I listed above).

Then I suspect we define "honest" rather differently.

As for lacking any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role... uhhh.... what? Ninja is literally the highest overall rDPS on average on that site not to be mentioned over all 4 fights of the recent savage tier right now. It's a freaking competitive job.

NIN is only a top dog at the 60th percentile and below. It quickly falls to about 5th place by the 80th percentile.

Meanwhile, let's look at how MCH or DRK, in their simplifications, have faired relative to StB or HW, respectively?

[Sqwall]

After watching the action trailer and the more in depth MNK rundown this is what I noticed and I'm sure most of this will be subject to change.

Tornado Kick is gone and Arm of the Destroyer is gone. Possibly a trait added for the skill Arm of Destroyer to be the "new tornado kick aoe". Level 62?

Meditation is gone/Absent. Which also could explain something in the action trailer. 2 chakra were gained after the "AOE replacement for Arm of the destroyer" was used. Maybe Meditation went full trait?

Forbidden Chackra potency is 370. 30 potency buff from 5.0. Might change

Fists stances gone. Also noticed Twin Snakes buff was 15% damage buff. Little blurry but it looks like 15%.

Riddle of "Wind". 50% something modifier 90sec recast. This was used in the job action trailer just after Brotherhood. Maybe 50% crit chance? Maybe 50% to open a chackra?

Riddle of Fire. 60sec recast. Other numbers look the same.

Brotherhood. 120sec recast. 15% damage buff? Little blurry on video. But the 20% chance on party weaponskill to open chackra seems missing.

Form timer is 30seconds. This seems strange to have such a long time on the form. Maybe will change to 15sec at launch?

Leaden Fist tool tip seems intake on Dragon Kick. With 30sec leaden fist timer.

Perfect Balance grants "True North/Riddle of Earth no positionals buff".

Blitz is level 60 and it looks like it has 4 possible attacks/combinations? There may be one more attack not seen? Blitz grants formless fist for 30 seconds. Fun fact the little symbols kinda look like the form names. Opo-opo looks like a monkey, raptor a dinosaur head, and courel a sitting cat with a tail.

The Blitz actions are form based like some deduced. Opo-opo,opo-opo,opo-opo = Elixir Field. Opo-opo, Raptor, Courel = "Phoenix Fire 850 potency?", and any full Blitz with Yin/Yang = "Star Shower Dive"?

Started with Ying in job action trailer, and did opo-opo, raptor, courel for "Phoenix Fire attack" for yang. Then did opo-opo, opo-opo, coruel, filled blitz and had ying/yang, used "Star Shower Dive"

Excited about Blitz and learning more about it. Especially the "burst window".
Yoshi only used perfect balance and didn't preform the normal 1,2,3 combo out of perfect balance. So every 40 seconds you gain a perfect balance charge. So what that's 8 seconds for 1,2,3 and the blitz use? 40-8=32 seconds until first perfect balance charge is back. Another 8 seconds for 1,2,3, Blitz. 32-8= 24sec left until next perfect balance. So that's 4 full 1,2,3, combos until you can blitz again if you back to back perfect balance?

Anyway that's what I have noticed from the videos, and I can't read Japanese. Hopefully we will have a detailed tool tip explanation soon. MrHappy did one for Reaper and seems pretty good for a job. Good Blend of playstyles.

[Kahnom]

So we don't get Form stacks outside PB ? And we do the old rotations while PB down ?
Shame.
IF we can build Form stacks without using PB, I believe it might makes me feel busy like the old GL.
I get that they don't want PB for exclusively spamming Dragon Kick + Bootshine though.

[Sqwall]

So we don't get Form stacks outside PB ? And we do the old rotations while PB down ?
Shame.
IF we can build Form stacks without using PB, I believe it might makes me feel busy like the old GL.
I get that they don't want PB for exclusively spamming Dragon Kick + Bootshine though.

With PB you form blitz every 40 seconds or do 2 Blitz back to back. Your forms/combos determine your blitz while in PB. Also I don’t think we were shown the whole kit yet I’m hoping we get something like that resets PB for 4 blitz back to back maybe? Anatman maybe has something secret? Who knows. We still don’t know the traits also

It really will be interesting to see what transpires here and I still has that old monk style with something for everyone

[VentVanitas]

Gonna be perfectly honest, seeing as how Elixir Field (and according to tooltips, Tornado Kick too) are fittingly GCD spenders now, I don't see any reason not to give back Howling Fist and Steel Peak.

[Sqwall]

Gonna be perfectly honest, seeing as how Elixir Field (and according to tooltips, Tornado Kick too) are fittingly GCD spenders now, I don't see any reason not to give back Howling Fist and Steel Peak.

I was thinking the same thing

[Caitsithhh]

This is a huge part of the problem going on right now. Even if SE implanted all the very ill-advised things a lot of these people suggested... a large portion of them still wouldn't main monk, or even play it much at all. People need to stop pushing for homogenization. Each job should have their own identity, and if you don't like a job there are plenty others.

I can't stand playing ranged casters, and feel samurai is brain dead easy and boring. That being said I don't go around demanding whacky ass changes be made to them.

Yet you don’t know how to play either role. Take your soapbox to Reddit and be an anonymous pro

[Andy_T93]

After watching the action trailer and the more in depth MNK rundown this is what I noticed and I'm sure most of this will be subject to change.

Meditation is gone/Absent. Which also could explain something in the action trailer. 2 chakra were gained after the "AOE replacement for Arm of the destroyer" was used. Maybe Meditation went full trait?

Meditation will still be there as normal. The reason you don't see it on the hotbar is because forbidden chakra was open so it replaced the meditation skill icon but obvs if he had used the chakra the icon would have reverted back to meditation