RIP MNK 1.x - 5.x

[Andy_T93]

This has become a bit aggressive everyone has their opinions on what makes a class good or bad or what the identity is, for me the identity of monk has always been more tied to speed than positionals

The being said I don't technically mind positionals HOWEVER i'm not a fan of having my own DPS tied to the gameplay of others. It's fine saying positionals are great but they aren't great when you have a tank who constantly spins the boss or who drags him somewhere that the rear is inaccessible. So while positionals themselves are fine any DPS mechanic that has the potential to limit my DPS through no fault of my own is a big no from me

[IruruCece]

The being said I don't technically mind positionals HOWEVER i'm not a fan of having my own DPS tied to the gameplay of others. It's fine saying positionals are great but they aren't great when you have a tank who constantly spins the boss or who drags him somewhere that the rear is inaccessible. So while positionals themselves are fine any DPS mechanic that has the potential to limit my DPS through no fault of my own is a big no from me

It's a multiplayer game, part of the challenge is working with other players. Report tanks for griefing if they refuse to stop spinning the boss, it works, and they get an un-eraseable mark on their account that can lead to a permaban. And honestly, report any player who griefs like this, because they bring down the quality of the gameplay experience for everyone else. I don't care how long they've played, I don't care how much time they've put into their character, they deserve the ban and can start all over again for being a jackass.

Speaking frankly though, that's a dungeon/alliance raids problem/normal raids roullette, which aren't really designed to test anyone's skill. If you're worried about parses during that content... you're probably stressing over absolutely nothing. Even the most uncoordinated groups can faceroll through If you're actually doing endgame content, a tank that is purposefully griefing their DPS isn't going to last very long in the group, and if they happen to be the person who started the group, people will leave it rather than deal with their BS.

Removing something from the game just because there's a set of players who will purposefully work to ruin the experience of others is not and should never be the correct solution for any job. Ban the players who are abusing others.

[Andy_T93]

It's a multiplayer game, part of the challenge is working with other players. Report tanks for griefing if they refuse to stop spinning the boss, it works, and they get an un-eraseable mark on their account that can lead to a permaban. And honestly, report any player who griefs like this, because they bring down the quality of the gameplay experience for everyone else. I don't care how long they've played, I don't care how much time they've put into their character, they deserve the ban and can start all over again for being a jackass.

Speaking frankly though, that's a dungeon/alliance raids problem/normal raids roullette, which aren't really designed to test anyone's skill. If you're worried about parses during that content... you're probably stressing over absolutely nothing. Even the most uncoordinated groups can faceroll through If you're actually doing endgame content, a tank that is purposefully griefing their DPS isn't going to last very long in the group, and if they happen to be the person who started the group, people will leave it rather than deal with their BS.

Removing something from the game just because there's a set of players who will purposefully work to ruin the experience of others is not and should never be the correct solution for any job. Ban the players who are abusing others.

I never once suggested I think they do it purposefully I have met nothing but nice people in this game and don't believe people would do that. But if you have a tank who has never played a DPS role and perhaps don't understand the importance of positionals then they can't be blamed for not understanding. And I certainly wouldn't be petty enough to report them.

It doesn't matter what content i'm running. I want to do the best job that I can. Sounds like you re advocating purely from the PoV of endgame content but I would like to perform to the best of a jobs ability at all times and unfortunately with positionals they are sometimes out of the players hands

[IruruCece]

Sounds like you re advocating purely from the PoV of endgame content

This isn't really from a purely endgame perspective, and more from a "wanting to be engaged by the game" perspective. Positionals, in addition to the original GL system, is why I mained monk for two expansions. No other job felt the way monk did to me. I liked being on the move constantly, it encouraged aggressive play in a way that literally no other DPS does. That, and I can't stand jobs where I just stand and deliver.

Short of bosses putting up AoEs, or mechanics demanding you move out of melee range, or the aforementioned tank griefing, missing positionals is your fault. If you don't want to miss them, get better at them. Recognize there are times where you can't hit them no matter what, but that when you can, you should. That's what makes the difference between average monks and the ones who perform better than the rest of us.

From my perspective, you're advocating from a perspective of not wanting to actually put in the effort that players better than us do, while still wantiong to be rewarded just the same, and that's pretty terrible for any game, not just this one. SE spent literally years doing that for this and other jobs and none of it has actually worked anyway, while also adding onto the problems that multiple jobs still face going into Endwalker.

Also: if you have a tank that is new, explain to them how to do something if they're making mistakes that affect you as well. If you're not helping players when they make serious mistakes, especially in a raid setting, you might be content to just let them keep screwing over other DPS in the raid, but other players won't be. It also makes the concern you showed earlier for tanks spinning mobs endlessly feel pretty hollow. Why even bring it up? Is it or is not an actual problem? There are still going to be positionals in EW, and there will still be newbie or griefing tanks spinning bosses.

One of those you can correct. The other, you report and move on.

[Navnav]

It's a multiplayer game, part of the challenge is working with other players. Report tanks for griefing if they refuse to stop spinning the boss, it works, and they get an un-eraseable mark on their account that can lead to a permaban. And honestly, report any player who griefs like this, because they bring down the quality of the gameplay experience for everyone else. I don't care how long they've played, I don't care how much time they've put into their character, they deserve the ban and can start all over again for being a jackass.

Speaking frankly though, that's a dungeon/alliance raids problem/normal raids roullette, which aren't really designed to test anyone's skill. If you're worried about parses during that content... you're probably stressing over absolutely nothing. Even the most uncoordinated groups can faceroll through If you're actually doing endgame content, a tank that is purposefully griefing their DPS isn't going to last very long in the group, and if they happen to be the person who started the group, people will leave it rather than deal with their BS.

Removing something from the game just because there's a set of players who will purposefully work to ruin the experience of others is not and should never be the correct solution for any job. Ban the players who are abusing others.

Your whole view is not grounded in reality, it is simply idealistic thinking. The REALITY is you are in no control over whether what a tank may decide to do, but what they do affects your damage. That is a designflaw for monk more than ny other as every ability is a positional. Reality says the tank doesn't care about your ideals, the tank will play how he wants to play. And don't come with this, "BuT iT IsNt SaVaGe!", cmon even in the normals people want to do some damage.

[ssunny2008]

This has become a bit aggressive everyone has their opinions

Nobody has ever said something against opinions, but a lot of arguments against positionals are inconsistent or made by ppl without much experience / who don´t even try.

- There are claims like "positionals don´t bring anything to the gameplay". But imagine there are a lot of players who like them and would miss them, because it´s atleast a small challenge and a bunch of movement in an 98% braindead and static game. Of course MNK needed a new mechanic, but that doesn´t mean, that positionals should go away, even if those are only 2 imo. They do bring much more to the gameplay then pressing 123 over and over again to fill a gauge until you can press 4.

- Then you´ve claims like "positionals are easy to play". So why does ppl don´t get used to them so easily? I´ve never got an answer on this, the reason seems obvious.

- Or "i hate playing positionals". Fine... but MNK has always been about them. Why don´t you pick another class? "Because i like some aesthetics."
But in the next moment: "MNK has no finisher and need better aesthetics".
And ok, why don´t you just ignore positionals then? They´re not needed in any content out of savage / ultimate. -> Still no answer on this and guess what? I can easily spy such guys and know, that they don´t even play the endgame and are not even good players, for sure.

- Lately someone special here was like "get ride of positionals pls" too, but in the next self-made thread he´s asking "what´s the purpose of anatman". Really? Does it sounds experienced or something?
Or the same guy is like "I hate positionals on MNK, but love them on DRG." Sooooo... play Dragoon?!

- Or like we´ve seen in this thread, ppl have never really played, tried or did math, tested stuff, whatever... but let´s claim that MNK positionals are irrelevant, because it´s only a 5% damage loss. Like what?
And even if that would be a thing, what in gods name hinders you to ignore them, when they´re useless anyway in your eyes?


Maybe you´ve some answers?

Nobody will say something against an opinion, but stuff like this doesn´t make sense. Such ppl just spread false informations or lie on purpose, just to find some arguments against positionals, which doesn´t show "i´m a bad player, i´m lazy".
I´ve never seen any MNK main complain like "We don´t want new mechanics."
It was needed. But what we want is that ALL positionals should stay as they are imo. And of course it would be kind to get a new and UNIQUE mechanic and not just the Meikyo Mudra we´ll get with blitz. 6.0 MNK will be more similar to other melees and will be easier to play. Even then... i wouldn´t be surprised, that the same ppl show up like "bäääh MNK", "bäääh positionals" in endwalker.

The acceptance of ppl, who don´t like anything about a class in this game, is a joke. I dislike SMN and DNC the most for a bunch of reasons, but do i complain about it? Do i want to get them changed for my own favor? No, i just don´t play them, unless i want to get an achievement or so. My better half for example is playing healer only, because everything else is either too boring or doesn´t match her playstyle. Does she complain? No... and so do millions of players, who can accept that a game has to offer different stuff for different ppl. SE needs to stop to cater the ignorance of some lefthanded players out there, seriously.

[Navnav]

- Lately someone special here was like "get ride of positionals pls" too, but in the next self-made thread he´s asking "what´s the purpose of anatman". Really? Does it sounds experienced or something?
Or the same guy is like "I hate positionals on MNK, but love them on DRG." Sooooo... play Dragoon?!

Hello my guy...

Anatman IS pointless. Just form shift. That MINIMAL gain over a long fight IS pointless. You can argue, but it is never going to make thta much of a difference.
Also, just because you don't like what I am saying, doesn't make it an invalid point, get off your high horse yeah. A lot of you think you are some kind gods at this game, but seemingly never played anything else. You don't know how this game can be better because you don't know how these kinds of games work, YOU are in fact the inexperienced one.

[wereotter]

Hello my guy...

Anatman IS pointless. Just form shift. That MINIMAL gain over a long fight IS pointless. You can argue, but it is never going to make thta much of a difference.
Also, just because you don't like what I am saying, doesn't make it an invalid point, get off your high horse yeah. A lot of you think you are some kind gods at this game, but seemingly never played anything else. You don't know how this game can be better because you don't know how these kinds of games work, YOU are in fact the inexperienced one.

minimal gain ≠ no gain

Monk has historically been the king of minimally useful, niche skills there to act as a bandaid on the mechanic that was greased lightning. The fact that you're unaware of this and are constantly on here criticizing the job because of its core identity without knowing what its skills are for really proves ssunny's point that actually you're the inexperienced one.

Yes, but that's precisely my point. Given those tools... why remove the positionals from all Raptor skills?

It might make sense, QoL-wise, to essentially turn RoE into a simple stack system as I described before, but short of that... what use do we have for a form losing positionals?

Riddle of Earth is a stack system, so I'm not sure what you're asking for... you get three stacks of it currently. I can't defend the loss of the positionals based off the blitz mechanic any better, though, since we don't know too much about how the system will operate yet, only to say that the devs stated that this was the reason they were removed from those two skills. We'll be able to weigh in more as to if they actually needed to do it once we get to play with it.

[Shurrikhan]

Riddle of Earth is a stack system, so I'm not sure what you're asking for... you get three stacks of it currently.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I just meant removing the button-bloat and weave cost of RoE in favor of a passively generated stack system for which each stack (to a max of, say, 3 stored) forgives a missed positional. That to me would be a sensible change, far more so than Raptor's lost positionals, which were neither needed nor happen to solve anything (since you'd still be dependent on lucky timing).

Personally, I feel that the 3 charges of RoE, each lasting a whopping 10s, is already highly overkill, but I'd have no issue with a faint measure of lenience that could then actually combat unexpected mob-spinning.