Apparently Yoshi-P thinks larger scale savage content is easier to get in to

[ForteNightshade]

It just seems incredibly out of touch to me.


Instead of making content where 4 friends, who normally run roulettes together, could go in for a challenge you want to prioritize large scale content that probably less people are gonna step into than savage? What kind of logic is that?
You did notice that you're talking about FFXIV, right? The game where most people either feel like they don't have the time or simply can't be bothered to find 7 other people to raid with and now you want them to instead organize 23-47 people?


I mean...if you want the participation to be about the same amount as ultimate then go ahead...well, that's the best case scenario, worst case your content will just be dead after a month. That's gonna be a great return on the dev time invested /s

Like I said in my initial post, I suspect your example is precisely why they're adverse to doing challenging four man content. People will be far less likely to help less experienced players and either group with friends or in communities they know. Large Scale content lets more players participate because you only need a handful of good players do the brunt work. DRS exemplifies this perfectly. Most of the DPS players aren't necessary beyond being a body that does decent enough damage. You simply need a handful of players in specific roles (tanks on Golem/Add/MT duty, healers with reflect/buffs, someone to handle the solo duel and a few key DPS using Duelist, Elder and Utility). In reality, you only have 15-20 key players alongside your shot calling (who may be performing double duty) and everyone else is just... there. None of this is to say those players are bad just... expendable. It's that expendability the devs covet because it means greater amounts of participation and potential clears.

Put another way, they don't believe difficult four man content will garner much more interest than DRS. And the type of players interested won't be the general masses. Or more specifically, people are more likely to exclude said masses to invite their friends or FC mates.

Of course, this is all conjecture on my part. However, given how Yoshida has been decidedly against difficult four man content for years despite its frequent request and his comments of wanting veteran players to "pick up the slack for less experienced players." I don't feel I'm entirely off the mark.

[Raikai]

At least it looks like we’re getting deep dungeon back this expansion. I enjoy doing them, and was disappointed we didn’t have one in ShB. It’s definitely harder to do at higher floors than the average 4 man content. It also relies on more than your ability to move to x spot at x time and do x rotation, which I find engaging. The floor save points make it easy to schedule and work with as well.

I hope with the changes they are hopefully making to the project management process, they can revisit the idea of smaller scale difficult content. I agree with Saefinn that there isn’t much in the way of an inbetween for savage and facerollable normal dungeons, and there should be.

This, I wouldn't be complaining as much with the lack of hard 4-man dungeon content if we had a deep dungeon this time around.

Everytime I bring this up, people clap back with do PotD or HoH, but I'm sick of those places, even if I didn't run them a lot in ShB, I did ad nauseum in their respective expansions. Second reason is that most jobs having their clear, definitive buttons past level 70, it's really bad to revert to level 60 and 70 buttons to do hard content, especially with jobs like BLM.

[Awha]

I wish they would add a mythic plus style content already but the community would most likely hate it. At least as someone mentioned we will get another deep dungeon next expansion which is something.

[Alleo]

Savage is jus a term for harder raids, especially now that we have Ultimate.

With that said, why would it be a problem if it were easier than normal 8-player Savage? I don't think the devs are trying to replace regular Savage content as the main hard difficulty mode. If the OP is correct about it potentially being closer to Extreme difficulty, that should be perfect for so called "midcore" players.

Because those that want it to be savage will have fights that are bascially just ex fights while getting nothing but maybe one Ultimate. If they then are bored of this fight then who will run it with the midcore people? Look at the amount of normal savage clears. This game is bascially mainly for casuals (which is fine, I am kinda one myself..at least when its about beating harder content). So for them it will be even more horrible to even try to get a clear because they dont have statics, they probably dont have discord groups or anything like that too. Good luck for the more casual player to find so many other people that are willing and able to try these fights out. And if its not for casual players and the raiders are done with it, who will then be left to try it with the more midcore group?

Smaller fights might still not be for the casuals crowd but they are much better imo for the raiders and even for those midcore groups. I for example have no time for raiding. Yet me and a friend try to clear quite a bit of the older savage stuff unsynch which might not be as awesome as it was when it was current content but it still felt absolutely nice to duo clear A12S. We also still plan to clear the deep dungeons as a duo and maybe one day I will get the solo clear too. If we had content with four people then I could see us trying it too because getting two other people is quite possible.

[Liam_Harper]

Like I said in my initial post, I suspect your example is precisely why they're adverse to doing challenging four man content. People will be far less likely to help less experienced players and either group with friends or in communities they know.

Which is something I'm rather against. Basically no, experienced players may not have challenging content and things to enjoy with their friends because they have to spend their time carrying bad players through Normal raids and dungeons. It's often thankless work with no real reward that you pay a sub for. It's disrespectful to the experienced player-base, they're just seen as tools to keep casual participation going.

This, I wouldn't be complaining as much with the lack of hard 4-man dungeon content if we had a deep dungeon this time around.

Honestly I'd rather see challenging dungeons. Deep dungeons are fine but they're a different type of gameplay, what with pomanders, magicites, sneaking around mobs, treasures and what not. I'm also not always a fan of the way you can progress nearly 200 floors and one wipe means back to the start, it's less relaxed than just putting out "hey, anyone up for a Mythic dungeon or two?" in your FC?
Dungeons are different to raids, you utilize aoe, they can be more heal intensive and require rotating tank cd's and even CC. They're visually interesting too. The devs put a lot of resources into them and it's a shame that we only ever get to experience them as face-roll story mode. It's a waste of good content.

[linayar]

Because those that want it to be savage will have fights that are bascially just ex fights while getting nothing but maybe one Ultimate. If they then are bored of this fight then who will run it with the midcore people? Look at the amount of normal savage clears. This game is bascially mainly for casuals (which is fine, I am kinda one myself..at least when its about beating harder content). So for them it will be even more horrible to even try to get a clear because they dont have statics, they probably dont have discord groups or anything like that too. Good luck for the more casual player to find so many other people that are willing and able to try these fights out. And if its not for casual players and the raiders are done with it, who will then be left to try it with the more midcore group?

Smaller fights might still not be for the casuals crowd but they are much better imo for the raiders and even for those midcore groups. I for example have no time for raiding. Yet me and a friend try to clear quite a bit of the older savage stuff unsynch which might not be as awesome as it was when it was current content but it still felt absolutely nice to duo clear A12S. We also still plan to clear the deep dungeons as a duo and maybe one day I will get the solo clear too. If we had content with four people then I could see us trying it too because getting two other people is quite possible.

As long as they give sufficient rewards and easy accessibility to the content (as in not locked behind Eureka/Bozja), they will have people running it. If this is content Yoshida wants more people to get into, this is not the content for people who want more than just one Ultimate. So yes, those people will get nothing if that's all they want. But even people who clear Ultimate may be tempted with sufficient rewards, so they may still run the content anyway.

[TarynH]

you could just log in hit raid finder and go...

It is a community problem, but I think it goes far beyond raid finder in NA. People tend to want that "perfect" group where everything clicks together, and content is done as painlessly as possible. That's why we have statics in the first place, because some people believe the content can't be done with PUGs. That's the elitist mentality, where game becomes job, and only the best can do the job. We're not as willing here. We want parsers. We want to make sure everything is running at maximum efficiency, fun be damned. In NA you're more likely to get berated/kicked if something goes wrong. We don't have a very supportive culture.

Just think of the worst dungeon you've ever had. Was it one where the tank was "too slow" and not collecting all the trash? Was it one where the healer wasn't doing enough dps? Not enough healing? Was a certain dps missing their rotation, or not using that one obscure ability that you think is the bees knees? Did you lose to that same boss one too many times, then have someone rage quit?

We have an entire thread on this forum dedicated to bad runs in content. The moral of most of those stories is that people don't want their time wasted. They want everything done their way and as efficiently as possible. So why would they waste their time with RF/PF PUGs? It's not that the tools aren't there, or that they're being used improperly. It's simply that there is a much more painless path to success.

Having to deal with all of that is not worth the rewards to me. So I avoid it. I also don't need FFXIV to be hard to enjoy it. I'd like to see them take a step back from savage/ex, and focus on midcore content for awhile. Something rewarding. There's a void there.