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  1. #11
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,649
    Character
    Kurenai Tenshi
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ssunny2008 View Post
    It´s up to you to ignore the given tools and in your special case it´s poor raid design and not an issue with the class, but still playable.
    Away from this, E11s is even the most melee friendly fight this tier, if not from the whole expansion. Those 2 GCD´s means nothing there. On the other hand you could go for 2 ranged attacks, it´s still 300 potency and in the end probably more worth than nothing just to save your rotation. It might be even possible to hold the gap as close as possible with the use of the backjump in the safespot combined with a delayed jump back to the boss.
    Now you're just making assumptions. I don't know how many times I needs reiterate this. Piercing Talon is always a loss. It's a meager 150 potency. Therefore, it takes four uses for it to surpass Full Thrust in damage. Except... it gets even worse because by breaking your combo, you'll lose out on the subsequent 370 from Fang/Wheeling, which go onto buff the next hit. Even Raiden Thrust, your weakest ability, necessitates three usages of Piercing to eclipse its damage. This has long been mathed out by theorycrafters, and one of the principle examples for range attacks not breaking combos. Piercing Talon is so laughably break, Dragoons defaulted to their AoE combo in E8S. And even that's still a loss unless you're on Fang/Wheeling/Raiden as they're only 10s long combos for some odd reason.

    All of this also calculates in the maximum amount of greed.

    Ironically, you dismiss your own argument by saying "those two GCDs don't matter." Then why even have range abilities to begin with? The whole point behind their existence is having a supposedly reliable ability to press when forced to disengage for a lengthy enough period you can't keep your GCD rolling. Monk literally doesn't even have one, Dragoon's is so embarrassingly weak they may as well not have one and even Samurai can lose out because it's always a gain to keep your combo over Enpi spam unless you'll lose several GCDs. Ninja is the only Melee with some degree of wiggle room here. In fact, Ninja has typically performed second or even first among Melee in several fights throughout this expansion. Could it possibly be due to the rework allowing it to weave Mudras at range, thus giving it upwards of two GCDs at full potency before dropping to Throwing Daggers? I doubt that has anything at all to do with it...

    This has nothing to do with balance in a general sense but the fact Melee range attacks have virtually no purpose. That, and your opening argument doesn't make sense. Per my prior example, Piercing Talon not breaking your combo wouldn't change anything else except to give Dragoon an actual GCD when forced off the boss for long periods like E8S. You'll still want to greed your combo and avoid using range attacks because they're weaker. Having to default to your AoE combo or do nothing at all is simply bad design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey_R View Post
    Some of the challenge of melee IS finding where you can get in to hit the boss, how much can you risk staying in, when is the soonest I can charge back in. By making these decisions non existent, you make melees less fun to play.

    Do people not think that SE take into account disengages when they 'balance' melee DPS? Do you think they just go, screw it, it doesn't matter. No, Melees will naturally have higher DPS when hitting a dummy to account for the fact they cannot be 100% on a boss.

    I don't understand the recent influx of people wanting to take away everything that makes melee DPS fun in the first place, positionals, disengages etc. Not every job is for everyone and that is fine. Infact, if you want a controversial opinion, I am not a fan of using Dancer, despite it being one of the more popular jobs. The amount of RNG that goes into just its basic rotation puts me off. However, I am not going to be that person that tries to make the job something I want. I just don't play it often and leave it for the people who DO enjoy playing it.
    No, they often don't. This is why Dragoon dropped to being the weakest non-Range DPS last tier, and Monk barely above it. Neither had any way to combat the frequent downtime in Verse whereas say, Ninja did. Keep in mind, this is the same balance team that went on record saying, "We don't balance Bard and Machinist around Piercing" and then were baffled why Dragoon was basically mandated in every party and why Bard always had such absurd balance creep. In took them four years to realize that was a problem.

    And I, equally, don't understand how making Melee Range attacks non-combo breaking takes away from that fun. Like I said above, you'll still prioritize keeping your combo GCD rolling above all else because delaying Full Thrust one GCD to hit Piercing Talon will be a loss. The only difference is you'll actually get to use Piercing Talon or consider spots to put it instead of simply sitting in the corner and sucking your thumb.
    (7)
    Last edited by ForteNightshade; 03-09-2021 at 11:06 AM.
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
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