Shadowbringers Melee DPS Role: Complaints, Feedback, and Suggestions

[Arkdra]

Having to optimize uptime is good actually and why I like melee dps. That said, they do need to reign in their need to have long pauses where nothing cool is happening, because that keeps coming up in every 5.x dungeon and I am getting real tired of it. Relict in particular is super guilty and one of the worst dungeons they've made in awhile.

[IruruCece]

Nobody thanks a tank at the end of a savage for doing it's job

Maybe you didn't do a very good job if nobody thanked you for tanking a Savage.

Having to optimize uptime is good actually and why I like melee dps. That said, they do need to reign in their need to have long pauses where nothing cool is happening, because that keeps coming up in every 5.x dungeon and I am getting real tired of it. Relict in particular is super guilty and one of the worst dungeons they've made in awhile.

The increasingly longer mid-fight cutscenes with nothing to fight is honesty a major factor that drove the removal of GL, and now there are people complaining in the positionals thread that the job is too fast. It's pretty much proof that the devs do not and never really have had an understanding regarding what the heck to even do with Monks, so they listened to a vocal group of people that for the most part didn't even take the job into advanced content.

FF Logs currently has the job next to last in terms of parses being recorded, so it's pretty obvious to me that the GL change did not affect its population for the better. If nothing else, I think it's the lowest I've seen it be this expansion (but that's anecdotal and maybe shouldn't be taken too seriously).

This is why I simply can't accept people calling the removal of GL a "good start" because it's barely a QoL change resulting from the devs wanting me to watch a cutscene mid-fight. Not only that, the devs apparently introduced an additional problem (job too fast) that compound with others (dun like positionals), and others still (nearly every new button introduced in ShB is a cruel joke made to spite people who liked punching things).

[LeonKeyh]

Having to optimize uptime is good actually and why I like melee dps. That said, they do need to reign in their need to have long pauses where nothing cool is happening, because that keeps coming up in every 5.x dungeon and I am getting real tired of it. Relict in particular is super guilty and one of the worst dungeons they've made in awhile.

What are the "long pauses" in Relict that you're talking about? The Porxy sucking in air and the Pushback+AE? The Sprite's cloud "phase"? I don't think those are that bad. There could be more to them to justify the fact that you stop paying attention to your rotation and have full attention on AEs, but I hardly feel like those are as annoying as you find them. It's definitely not as bad as the last boss in Mt Gulg.

[IruruCece]

What are the "long pauses" in Relict that you're talking about? The Porxy sucking in air and the Pushback+AE? The Sprite's cloud "phase"? I don't think those are that bad. There could be more to them to justify the fact that you stop paying attention to your rotation and have full attention on AEs, but I hardly feel like those are as annoying as you find them. It's definitely not as bad as the last boss in Mt Gulg.

In general, any moment in a boss fight where you don't get to actually fight anything for an extended period of time is pretty much dead space that allows self-buffs to drop off, combos to fall off. It's not good design. It actively clashes with gameplay that has more or less been set in stone for years, and ShB is the worst it has ever been in that regard. If I ever, EVER need to watch a teenaged anime girl bash the ice prison of another anime girl with a hammer again, or bounce between platforms while awkwardly paced dialogue plays out before combat starts anew, while the raid's buffs and combos fall off, it will be too gosh darn soon.

Lengthy phase changes were often a means to help people get resources recovered and cooldowns lined up. But TP has been gone for a while now, MP has been normalized, and cooldowns have generally been set in such a way that organized and dedicated players have developed strategies to line up burst phases across a wide range of DPS jobs.

At some point, spectacle has become more important to encounter design than the actual "playing it" part of the game. I guess if FF14 is a big content theme park for FF fans, watching cutscenes take greater and greater precedence over time is an amazing allegory to the rest of FF as a whole.

[Beddict]

If I ever, EVER need to watch a teenaged anime girl bash the ice prison of another anime girl with a hammer again, or bounce between platforms while awkwardly paced dialogue plays out before combat starts anew, while the raid's buffs and combos fall off, it will be too gosh darn soon.

My first thought going through E8N and E12N: "Oh neat, they're continuing to integrate story and gameplay in the raids."

My immediate followup thought: "This is gonna suck on weekly reclears for Blades."

I get what SE is trying to do but yeah, it's annoying to have the raid get disrupted constantly for those cutscenes or long phase changes.

[ForteNightshade]

First of all, your math lacks a bit. Your example was about the loss of 2 GCD´s, which means 300 potency with 2 range attacks. Then you´re going to start your combo again, which means you get additional 290 potency if it´s unbuffed. This means you´ve done damage with 590 potency. Even IF you´re at Full Thrust with its 530 potency, it´s still more to use 2 range attacks, isn´t it?
Now we could go forward with FT until your combo ends, which means 530 + 370 + 370 potency at max. = 1270 potency.
On the other hand you could go those 2 ways: 150 + 150 + 290 + 350 + 530 = 1470 potency OR 150 + 150 + 290 + 320 + 330 = 1240 potency with the bonus to refresh your damage buff and DoT with 50 potency.

This is incorrect because you have to factor in the loss of a buffed Wheeling Thrust and Raiden Thrust since even with only two GCDs lost, you'll still lose out of them. Balance has already theory crafted it takes at least three GCDs before Piercing Talon becomes a gain over breaking combo. And even in such a scenario, your AoE is always better. This, in turn, makes Piercing Talon literally worthless. Likewise, Monk has a similar issue as SSS isn't enough of a gain if they have to spent lengthily periods of time off the boss.

It isn't just "some guide" but top tier players with 99-100 percentile parses and excel sims that document every possible damage output any job can do. This compared to you... claiming otherwise with no documented emphasise other than you feel it's better. I think I'll side with the people who document these calculations, no offense.

Second... i don´t dismiss my own argument. Those 2 GCD´s means nothing over the whole fight unless you wipe at 0,01%. You´re the one who has an issue with such RARE cases, not me. I gave you examples how to handle it, it´s up to you if you try or ignore them. The mechanic is playable.

Your argument boiled down to making Melee range attacks non-combo breaking would remove thought or gameplay from the jobs. You can't subsequently say "well, those GCDs don't matter anyway". Technically, you're correct. Hell, you could miss ten GCDs and easily clear Daddycred... but what thought or gameplay aspects are occurring when you're sitting in a corner doing nothing for two GCDs? You can't greed any further, thus you can't do anything without it being a loss. Making Piercing Talon not break your combo gives you a GCD to utilize. It doesn't make Melee "way more forgiving" because literally nothing changes in how your response to a mechanic you must disengage for. If you're going for optimization, you'll always prioritize your main combo over wasting a GCD on a lower potency ability. All this change does is let Piercing Talon actually be useful, since as of now, there is no reason to put it on your hotbar.

Uptime strats are irrelevant in this discussion because not only are their mechanics were you can't keep uptime, you also may not be in a group utilizing them. The whole purpose here is giving range melee attacks a purpose when they barely have one. Ninja's entire overhaul disproves everything you've said wrong because it's the only melee that can freely disengage and isn't usually punished at all for it. Not only is its gameplay not changed or make "easier" solely due to its Murdas, it always pulls ahead of Dragoon and Monk in fights with any sort of melee downtime. Why is that? Because it has multiple range attacks, one of which is part of its core kit.

Simply put, this idea that an ability like Piercing Talon not breaking your combo will suddenly make Dragoon more forgiving and easy, is ridiculous. You'll never prioritize it over maintaining your combo whenever possible. Therefore, it only serves the purpose of giving you something to do when there's downtime in a fight, be it forced or due to a poor PF strat.

[Kolsykol]

My first thought going through E8N and E12N: "Oh neat, they're continuing to integrate story and gameplay in the raids."

My immediate followup thought: "This is gonna suck on weekly reclears for Blades."

I get what SE is trying to do but yeah, it's annoying to have the raid get disrupted constantly for those cutscenes or long phase changes.

I think it's cool the first time, but much like the cutscenes in the MSQ roulette you should be able to vote to skip at the start.
I don't really think that those cases are so bad tho they're over pretty fast and there's waaaaaaay longer examples of transitions in fights than those.

The thing that bothers me way more than those are the clicky '' action '' events.

[ssunny2008]

Balance has already theory crafted it takes at least three GCDs before Piercing Talon becomes a gain over breaking combo.

Theory and killing a boss are different things. Have they made it for E11s?
As i said, it might still depend on the moment of your combo and how things going on / when the boss dies, if we really want to talk about the last 0,1%. It could be even a thing, that a resetted combo fit further range attacks or close delayed burst windows even better. But this is boss & strategy depended.

NIN

NIN has a complete design around it and it´s even somehow balanced. You can´t and don´t want to use it however you want. You want to time them as other things. A missclick could even cut everything.

Simply put, this idea that an ability like Piercing Talon not breaking your combo will suddenly make Dragoon more forgiving and easy, is ridiculous. You'll never prioritize it over maintaining your combo whenever possible. Therefore, it only serves the purpose of giving you something to do when there's downtime in a fight, be it forced or due to a poor PF strat.

It´s still not about priorization or not. The fact is, that better range tools give you the advantage, that you don´t have to search for a better solution or the perfect timing. You´re able to move to your spot and use them, no matter if it´s mechanic based or just bad played. This makes the classes way more forgivable at any time without any real loss. Raids will always be like "playing mechanics against the timer". It will allow the player to play mechanics more safe without losing the race against the enrage. (And yes, not everyone is a 100% farmer and needs every second and equip-percentage to beat a boss.)
If anything, SE should design their raids better instead of giving us more QoL tools without any con. The game has become way too easy already and yeah, stuff like "uptime possible or not" based on stupid RNG is really poor implemented. It´s like having 1000 extra DPS to beat a boss or not, based on the game´s will. It´s just laughable to make the classes easy and claim "mechanics will be the challenge", when RNG is all what SE presents in the end of the day to fck up caster / melees in some way.

Btw have you ever tried the backjump > (delayed) jump? I would really like to know if it´s possible.

[ForteNightshade]

Theory and killing a boss are different things. Have they made it for E11s?
As i said, it might still depend on the moment of your combo and how things going on / when the boss dies, if we really want to talk about the last 0,1%. It could be even a thing, that a resetted combo fit further range attacks or close delayed burst windows even better. But this is boss & strategy depended.

... I literally said they are 99-100 percentile players. Furthermore, this isn't new information. Piercing Talon has been mathed out as a loss since the beginning of this expansion because it not only can't make up the difference of your buffed combo that never breaks, even in a situation where you'll opt to use range attacks, Doom Spike is 170. There hasn't been a single scenario this entire expansion has any reason to be on your hotbar.

NIN has a complete design around it and it´s even somehow balanced. You can´t and don´t want to use it however you want. You want to time them as other things. A missclick could even cut everything.

If that were the case, why doesn't Ninja pull drastically ahead this tier? In Verse, it completely dominated Dragoon and Monk yet now is only slightly ahead or outright lower. Could it be the fact this tier is far more Melee friendly? In fact, the one fight Ninja is more noticeably ahead is E9S... which has brief downtime. I'm well aware how Ninja plays, however it's usually a gain to delay a Mudra if you know you'll have downtime. Dragoon, Monk and even Samurai don't have that option. Granted, Samurai at least has a combo Enpi possibility.

It´s still not about priorization or not. The fact is, that better range tools give you the advantage, that you don´t have to search for a better solution or the perfect timing. You´re able to move to your spot and use them, no matter if it´s mechanic based or just bad played. This makes the classes way more forgivable at any time without any real loss. Raids will always be like "playing mechanics against the timer". It will allow the player to play mechanics more safe without losing the race against the enrage. (And yes, not everyone is a 100% farmer and needs every second and equip-percentage to beat a boss.)
If anything, SE should design their raids better instead of giving us more QoL tools without any con. The game has become way too easy already and yeah, stuff like "uptime possible or not" based on stupid RNG is really poor implemented. It´s like having 1000 extra DPS to beat a boss or not, based on the game´s will. It´s just laughable to make the classes easy and claim "mechanics will be the challenge", when RNG is all what SE presents in the end of the day to fck up caster / melees in some way.

Yes, it does. Spinning your GCD on a 150 potency attack will be a noticeably loss even without it breaking your combo if you could have otherwise stayed in and greeded your main combo with Sprint. All this accomplishes is giving Melee a button to press when they're forced off the boss. The only "advantage" is to overly safe players who disengage too early, which is entirely irrelevant because there's already going to lose damage anyway. What race to enrage? You literally said two GCDs won't matter. Now you're claiming the exact opposite; that by allowing Melee range attacks to not break your combo, it'll somehow be the difference between a potential kill? Furthermore, you keep acting as though this change would suddenly make Melee braindead when in reality, it'll barely impact them overall since, well... you'll very seldom use these attacks. Put simply, you are making way too big a deal over how "easier" this will make Melee.

Granted, I do agree some mechanics are just poorly thought out. E7S towers comes to mind where double Melee comps may have to disengage purely by chance. Not only is it irritating for the Melee, it entirely negates Range players having free mobility since they don't even utilize it. But that's a whole separate issue.

Btw have you ever tried the backjump > (delayed) jump? I would really like to know if it´s possible.

If you mean Elusive Jump-ing back to the boss? It works in E10S when he does "chariot". You can get an extra GCD with sprint, run out and flip back through the animation. You'll still lose a GCD but only just barely. Can also time it on E11S but isn't needed there.

[ssunny2008]

Furthermore, you keep acting as though this change would suddenly make Melee braindead when in reality, it'll barely impact them overall since, well... you'll very seldom use these attacks.

I really do understand your point and i don´t want to arque in a circle. Yes, it might doesn´t make that difference on 90+ players who barely do a mistake and never play in pf, whatever. But a lot of players will rely on that easily. Once i´ve had a SAM with better gear than me in E11s, but he was an aweful player and definately didn´t play around timings or went for the greed. It would´ve helped a lot in dmg, if we would´ve spammed his range attack at any sidekick mechanic where you´ve to move somehow.
It doesn´t sound much, but in the end... such already easy classes will become even easier and if someone does a mistake, "range attack!". And i´m definately the last one who would vote for more QoL changes or dumb downs in a game i could play double-lefthanded, because it got easier and easier over the years.

If you mean Elusive Jump-ing back to the boss? It works in E10S when he does "chariot". You can get an extra GCD with sprint, run out and flip back through the animation. You'll still lose a GCD but only just barely. Can also time it on E11S but isn't needed there.

I mean to keep up more uptime in your E11s RED example. Backjump in the safespot and instajump to the boss with one of the 2 dives? Should be more like a half GCD loss instead of 2 then.