Shadowbringers Melee DPS Role: Complaints, Feedback, and Suggestions

[ForteNightshade]

Those are permanent decisions you make and timings to find out. Pretty much all mechanics will become more or less irrelevant if you give Melees bigger and better disengage / range tools. Tanks won´t even have to care for boss positioning too. It´s good as it is imo. If anything, SE should get ride of dash-damage and leave it as gapcloser only.

... what? You'd still prioritize your single target combo because it deals more damage. It wouldn't change anything else except make the Melee less punished when forced to disengage. Which is fair because no other role has this issue. In fact, they specifically gave Black Mage a slew of movement tools to help mitigate that exact problem. Furthermore, there is no decision making with Dragoon. Piercing Talon is always a loss. It's complete garbage.

[ssunny2008]

... what? You'd still prioritize your single target combo because it deals more damage. It wouldn't change anything else except make the Melee less punished when forced to disengage. Which is fair because no other role has this issue. In fact, they specifically gave Black Mage a slew of movement tools to help mitigate that exact problem. Furthermore, there is no decision making with Dragoon. Piercing Talon is always a loss. It's complete garbage.

It´s not about prioritize or not. The point is, that disengages are the only real con every melee has. If you give them a strong tool to get ride of this issue, they could even get ride of the mechanic and leave them stuck at the boss. You don´t have to take care for timings or anything anymore, you can play easily save without that big DPS loss. It would be even way too forgivable for personal missplays.

It´s not even about fair either, because it´s alright imo. Caster have casting times, Melees have to deal with the downtimes meanwhile phys. Range don´t have to deal with anything of that, but do overall less damage. It´s definately fair and the only reason why BLM shines imo, is because the actual tier is way to friendly to him. I remember times where nearly noone played BLM or noone wanted them in the party for obvious reasons. And those tools are not permanent ready. Any mechanic or RNG into your leylines or hardcasts is pain.

Such "punishments" are part of the game and class design and they should definately stay.

[ForteNightshade]

It´s not about prioritize or not. The point is, that disengages are the only real con every melee has. If you give them a strong tool to get ride of this issue, they could even get ride of the mechanic and leave them stuck at the boss. You don´t have to take care for timings or anything anymore, you can play easily save without that big DPS loss. It would be even way too forgivable for personal missplays.

Yes, it is. Literally every example you gave boils down to "will I do more damage if I perform y." This doesn't change with stronger range attacks. For example, in E11S, I have to disengage for Lightning cycle, there's a period of roughly two GCDs where I can't attack. There is no thought here, no decision making. I've already greeded the cast bar with Sprint. I literally do nothing because Piercing Talon is garbage. Making it not break my combo essentially gives me a button to press in this window where I'm otherwise taking a sip of coffee. Ninja's mudras actually add depth because they have a range option to fall back on whereas the other Melee don't, though Samurai can at least make theirs work.

You also keep ignoring Dragoon's range attack is worthless. It's so weak, there's literally zero reason to have it on your hotbar. That isn't fair, it's bad design.

It´s not even about fair either, because it´s alright imo. Caster have casting times, Melees have to deal with the downtimes meanwhile phys. Range don´t have to deal with anything of that, but do overall less damage. It´s definately fair and the only reason why BLM shines imo, is because the actual tier is way to friendly to him. I remember times where nearly noone played BLM or noone wanted them in the party for obvious reasons. And those tools are not permanent ready. Any mechanic or RNG into your leylines or hardcasts is pain.

Except Casters have options to fall back on. Summoner practically laughs at movement mechanics because they have so many instant casts. In fact, the only Caster remotely hindered by heavy movement is, ironically, Red Mage. And even they have Dualcast and Swiftcast to play with. The Melee have nothing. We just lose damage. Now if we were the strongest role in the game, you could make the argument of this being the trade off. But we aren't. Black Mage and Summoner deal more damage... despite having zero hindrance from movement. Even Red Mage is ahead of most Melee. So there is an imbalance here. Furthermore, it isn't this tier being friendly to Black Mage. They've been given a massive amount of movement tools specifically to address complaints about movement.

The whole purpose of learning how to play Black Mage is discovering where you can place Leylines, when you need to hold Triplecast and etc. That's primarily why its rotation is fairly basic. The actual difficulty comes from learning how you can turret. Melee don't have this option. If a mechanic requires they disengage, they just lose damage.

So having abilities so useless, you take them off your hotbar is "part of the game and class design"? Monk doesn't even have to worry. They don't have one to begin with. That also part of the design? Do literally nothing. Definitely good design...

[Kabooa]

The whole purpose of learning how to play Black Mage is discovering where you can place Leylines, when you need to hold Triplecast and etc. That's primarily why its rotation is fairly basic. The actual difficulty comes from learning how you can turret. Melee don't have this option. If a mechanic requires they disengage, they just lose damage.

So having abilities so useless, you take them off your hotbar is "part of the game and class design"? Monk doesn't even have to worry. They don't have one to begin with. That also part of the design? Do literally nothing. Definitely good design...

It's worth pointing out that one of the countless pre-expansion interviews going about asked YoshiP about this, and his response was that they're looking into it because "Adding more mechanics specifically makes things harder for those in Melee range".

What this means, who knows, though if that does include having options to minimize the punishment of disengaging, we may see more mechanics with forced disengagement but having options to utilize. Hopefully said options have a proper do/don't weight to it, instead of "Piercing Talon doesn't break combos and hits harder".

But that's also the primary advantage ranged still hold at the moment, so if that goes, there's going to need to be some reevaluation needed there.

[ssunny2008]

snip

It´s up to you to ignore the given tools and in your special case it´s poor raid design and not an issue with the class, but still playable.
Away from this, E11s is even the most melee friendly fight this tier, if not from the whole expansion. Those 2 GCD´s means nothing there. On the other hand you could go for 2 ranged attacks, it´s still 300 potency and in the end probably more worth than nothing just to save your rotation. It might be even possible to hold the gap as close as possible with the use of the backjump in the safespot combined with a delayed jump back to the boss.

About the class thing... Redmage and Summoner are BEHIND ALL melee classes in damage this tier. BLM is the only number 1 close followed by SAM. And again, it´s only because this tier is really really friendly to all those BLM´s out there.
Overall the balancing is fine, all of them are close to each other and that one rare DPS loss caused by the obvious fact that you´re a melee, is nothing. Only phys. range could debate about the big gap in damage for some reason, even if i think 2k DPS less by top players is still "ok". But it definately shouldn´t be more and might move to 1k.

Melees have their options and you can greed the hell out of a lot of mechanics. SAM can easily use backdash, range, dash. DRG could possibly do the same. NIN has ninjutsus anyway and MNK the SSS or chakra for those 0,5s. Especially in E11s you can reach 100% uptime easily. Even with my MNK it works nearly perfectly, so it shouldn´t be an issue with DRG, who has ~0,5s more on the GCD timer.

And yes, MNK doesn´t have to worry about range and that´s great. SSS is a great tool and fits the class 100%, even if you might lose that 0,5s or whatever if you´re using it in some situations. The DPS loss about that is a joke and it´s definately calculated from SE since, again, the balancing is really good and well played melee careers are top DPS imo. If the mechanics continue to be so "BLM friendly", give him and SAM a little nerf and all is fine.

Some of the challenge of melee IS finding where you can get in to hit the boss, how much can you risk staying in, when is the soonest I can charge back in. By making these decisions non existent, you make melees less fun to play.

Do people not think that SE take into account disengages when they 'balance' melee DPS? Do you think they just go, screw it, it doesn't matter. No, Melees will naturally have higher DPS when hitting a dummy to account for the fact they cannot be 100% on a boss.

I don't understand the recent influx of people wanting to take away everything that makes melee DPS fun in the first place, positionals, disengages etc. Not every job is for everyone and that is fine. Infact, if you want a controversial opinion, I am not a fan of using Dancer, despite it being one of the more popular jobs. The amount of RNG that goes into just its basic rotation puts me off. However, I am not going to be that person that tries to make the job something I want. I just don't play it often and leave it for the people who DO enjoy playing it.

Agree 100%

[ForteNightshade]

It´s up to you to ignore the given tools and in your special case it´s poor raid design and not an issue with the class, but still playable.
Away from this, E11s is even the most melee friendly fight this tier, if not from the whole expansion. Those 2 GCD´s means nothing there. On the other hand you could go for 2 ranged attacks, it´s still 300 potency and in the end probably more worth than nothing just to save your rotation. It might be even possible to hold the gap as close as possible with the use of the backjump in the safespot combined with a delayed jump back to the boss.

Now you're just making assumptions. I don't know how many times I needs reiterate this. Piercing Talon is always a loss. It's a meager 150 potency. Therefore, it takes four uses for it to surpass Full Thrust in damage. Except... it gets even worse because by breaking your combo, you'll lose out on the subsequent 370 from Fang/Wheeling, which go onto buff the next hit. Even Raiden Thrust, your weakest ability, necessitates three usages of Piercing to eclipse its damage. This has long been mathed out by theorycrafters, and one of the principle examples for range attacks not breaking combos. Piercing Talon is so laughably break, Dragoons defaulted to their AoE combo in E8S. And even that's still a loss unless you're on Fang/Wheeling/Raiden as they're only 10s long combos for some odd reason.

All of this also calculates in the maximum amount of greed.

Ironically, you dismiss your own argument by saying "those two GCDs don't matter." Then why even have range abilities to begin with? The whole point behind their existence is having a supposedly reliable ability to press when forced to disengage for a lengthy enough period you can't keep your GCD rolling. Monk literally doesn't even have one, Dragoon's is so embarrassingly weak they may as well not have one and even Samurai can lose out because it's always a gain to keep your combo over Enpi spam unless you'll lose several GCDs. Ninja is the only Melee with some degree of wiggle room here. In fact, Ninja has typically performed second or even first among Melee in several fights throughout this expansion. Could it possibly be due to the rework allowing it to weave Mudras at range, thus giving it upwards of two GCDs at full potency before dropping to Throwing Daggers? I doubt that has anything at all to do with it...

This has nothing to do with balance in a general sense but the fact Melee range attacks have virtually no purpose. That, and your opening argument doesn't make sense. Per my prior example, Piercing Talon not breaking your combo wouldn't change anything else except to give Dragoon an actual GCD when forced off the boss for long periods like E8S. You'll still want to greed your combo and avoid using range attacks because they're weaker. Having to default to your AoE combo or do nothing at all is simply bad design.

Some of the challenge of melee IS finding where you can get in to hit the boss, how much can you risk staying in, when is the soonest I can charge back in. By making these decisions non existent, you make melees less fun to play.

Do people not think that SE take into account disengages when they 'balance' melee DPS? Do you think they just go, screw it, it doesn't matter. No, Melees will naturally have higher DPS when hitting a dummy to account for the fact they cannot be 100% on a boss.

I don't understand the recent influx of people wanting to take away everything that makes melee DPS fun in the first place, positionals, disengages etc. Not every job is for everyone and that is fine. Infact, if you want a controversial opinion, I am not a fan of using Dancer, despite it being one of the more popular jobs. The amount of RNG that goes into just its basic rotation puts me off. However, I am not going to be that person that tries to make the job something I want. I just don't play it often and leave it for the people who DO enjoy playing it.

No, they often don't. This is why Dragoon dropped to being the weakest non-Range DPS last tier, and Monk barely above it. Neither had any way to combat the frequent downtime in Verse whereas say, Ninja did. Keep in mind, this is the same balance team that went on record saying, "We don't balance Bard and Machinist around Piercing" and then were baffled why Dragoon was basically mandated in every party and why Bard always had such absurd balance creep. In took them four years to realize that was a problem.

And I, equally, don't understand how making Melee Range attacks non-combo breaking takes away from that fun. Like I said above, you'll still prioritize keeping your combo GCD rolling above all else because delaying Full Thrust one GCD to hit Piercing Talon will be a loss. The only difference is you'll actually get to use Piercing Talon or consider spots to put it instead of simply sitting in the corner and sucking your thumb.

[ssunny2008]

snip

First of all, your math lacks a bit. Your example was about the loss of 2 GCD´s, which means 300 potency with 2 range attacks. Then you´re going to start your combo again, which means you get additional 290 potency if it´s unbuffed. This means you´ve done damage with 590 potency. Even IF you´re at Full Thrust with its 530 potency, it´s still more to use 2 range attacks, isn´t it?
Now we could go forward with FT until your combo ends, which means 530 + 370 + 370 potency at max. = 1270 potency.
On the other hand you could go those 2 ways: 150 + 150 + 290 + 350 + 530 = 1470 potency OR 150 + 150 + 290 + 320 + 330 = 1240 potency with the bonus to refresh your damage buff and DoT with 50 potency.

So what is more worth in the end?! We can´t even real argue about "but my later rotation gets delayed", because it´ll get delayed via downtime as it will get delayed with your range attacks. And if your combo isn´t at FT at this moment, the max. potency without range attacks is even less. The only thing that could change the overall math is the moment of your combo when prismatic starts, because it definately is a difference if you hit FT or TT as last hit.

In the end it might depend on the moment "where your combo is" and how things going on. But even if you would use PT only one time, it´s still a minimum of 440 potency compared to "nothing + the next combo skill". So tbh... just because someone in a guide or so says "it´s worthless", doesn´t mean that it´s worthless. It always depends on its use and the timing on any skill.

Second... i don´t dismiss my own argument. Those 2 GCD´s means nothing over the whole fight unless you wipe at 0,01%. You´re the one who has an issue with such RARE cases, not me. I gave you examples how to handle it, it´s up to you if you try or ignore them. The mechanic is playable.

Third: Changing range abilites to not break your combo or with superior potency would change a lot in kind of gameplay. You would use it at any mistake and you could ignore timings pretty much. It would make melees way more forgivable against their only con: "the need to stay in melee range". And yes, the AOE of DRG might have 20 potency more, but less range. I wouldn´t call it bad design, maybe "bad thought" when players can use the AOE instead of their range tool. But overall it´s a part of balancing and the big part of being a melee, is to stay in melee range. Any superior range tool will take out the effort a player needs to find a way around such situations. It would be laughable and boring af.

At last... E8s? There are tons of uptime strats and a lot is way easier to play for those who have both, backdash + dash (SAM & DRG). The only mechanic, where you would lose probably a half GCD with a good timing, should be Ilya with an orb-tether. I´ve never tried it, but it might be even possible to greed for the last GCD, run fast around your ball, jump to the boss, do 2 GCD´s and move in the tower. I´ve played it with SAM and used one range attack instead of a dash to the boss.
Another big mechanic would be the song of i&f. But if you play safe, you can surely go for the 3-4 range attacks since it should be even worth in your eyes. On the other hand... you can greed, jump to the boss and left-right-left on max. melee range to bait the aoe´s. Everything else got pretty much uptime strats or is really good playable with jumps / dashes. You just need to preposition yourself and time them.

(And well, you should keep in mind, that even the best pf-strats are not the best strats overall. A lot of stuff can be done better for the group or to cater a single player. E.g. It even makes a difference if i play M1 or M2 as MNK at E11s. M2 forces me to use my RoE more than M1 based on the RNG mechanics, unless the strat says "tanks + healer move".)

[ForteNightshade]

First of all, your math lacks a bit. Your example was about the loss of 2 GCD´s, which means 300 potency with 2 range attacks. Then you´re going to start your combo again, which means you get additional 290 potency if it´s unbuffed. This means you´ve done damage with 590 potency. Even IF you´re at Full Thrust with its 530 potency, it´s still more to use 2 range attacks, isn´t it?
Now we could go forward with FT until your combo ends, which means 530 + 370 + 370 potency at max. = 1270 potency.
On the other hand you could go those 2 ways: 150 + 150 + 290 + 350 + 530 = 1470 potency OR 150 + 150 + 290 + 320 + 330 = 1240 potency with the bonus to refresh your damage buff and DoT with 50 potency.

This is incorrect because you have to factor in the loss of a buffed Wheeling Thrust and Raiden Thrust since even with only two GCDs lost, you'll still lose out of them. Balance has already theory crafted it takes at least three GCDs before Piercing Talon becomes a gain over breaking combo. And even in such a scenario, your AoE is always better. This, in turn, makes Piercing Talon literally worthless. Likewise, Monk has a similar issue as SSS isn't enough of a gain if they have to spent lengthily periods of time off the boss.

It isn't just "some guide" but top tier players with 99-100 percentile parses and excel sims that document every possible damage output any job can do. This compared to you... claiming otherwise with no documented emphasise other than you feel it's better. I think I'll side with the people who document these calculations, no offense.

Second... i don´t dismiss my own argument. Those 2 GCD´s means nothing over the whole fight unless you wipe at 0,01%. You´re the one who has an issue with such RARE cases, not me. I gave you examples how to handle it, it´s up to you if you try or ignore them. The mechanic is playable.

Your argument boiled down to making Melee range attacks non-combo breaking would remove thought or gameplay from the jobs. You can't subsequently say "well, those GCDs don't matter anyway". Technically, you're correct. Hell, you could miss ten GCDs and easily clear Daddycred... but what thought or gameplay aspects are occurring when you're sitting in a corner doing nothing for two GCDs? You can't greed any further, thus you can't do anything without it being a loss. Making Piercing Talon not break your combo gives you a GCD to utilize. It doesn't make Melee "way more forgiving" because literally nothing changes in how your response to a mechanic you must disengage for. If you're going for optimization, you'll always prioritize your main combo over wasting a GCD on a lower potency ability. All this change does is let Piercing Talon actually be useful, since as of now, there is no reason to put it on your hotbar.

Uptime strats are irrelevant in this discussion because not only are their mechanics were you can't keep uptime, you also may not be in a group utilizing them. The whole purpose here is giving range melee attacks a purpose when they barely have one. Ninja's entire overhaul disproves everything you've said wrong because it's the only melee that can freely disengage and isn't usually punished at all for it. Not only is its gameplay not changed or make "easier" solely due to its Murdas, it always pulls ahead of Dragoon and Monk in fights with any sort of melee downtime. Why is that? Because it has multiple range attacks, one of which is part of its core kit.

Simply put, this idea that an ability like Piercing Talon not breaking your combo will suddenly make Dragoon more forgiving and easy, is ridiculous. You'll never prioritize it over maintaining your combo whenever possible. Therefore, it only serves the purpose of giving you something to do when there's downtime in a fight, be it forced or due to a poor PF strat.

[Divinewindx]

no thanks, just play different game