"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Veis_Alveare]

It's amusing to me that you felt like you needed my permission. But yes, go forward and do whatever you want. I'm not responsible for how you behave in video games.

Also, you've spent enough time on these forums to know there are roughly 6-7 people who have the complete same mindset as you, and are in every single discussion like this. You knew they'd be here and you knew they'd agree with every little thing you say. I'm starting to think that's where all of your confidence comes from. You're leaning on them so hard now, I wonder how brave you'd be in a thread like this if they weren't around.

Dude, you realize that the overwhelming majority of players on the forums are very much casual right? The difference is they aren't toxically casual.

But hey, if you ever want to discuss things somewhere else feel free to add me on discord. Maybe we would both be marginally less vapid in another setting and I'm willing to listen to just about anyone talk about this game cause I love it. I require zero backup, I'm holding the same opinions now that I did at the start of this thread specifically because I haven't been convinced otherwise.

swiftcastholy#9999

Don't be trying to use whatever "support" one side may be getting to either push or detract from an argument. You're both doing the same thing, just in different ways, and it's petty as hell. And lets not go grouping everyone into one tidy collection just because they may agree on some points.

I don't think agreeing on something makes anyone part of any "collection" apart from the one defined by the mutual agreement.

Of the people who I've agreed with in this thread alone I'm sure we aren't all playing at the same levels or holding all the same opinions, that doesn't mean we all still can't agree that the mindset of advice being harassment is detrimental and nonsensical.

If you think it's petty to come to a community that is advertised as overwhelmingly casual and being pleasantly surprised to find reasonable people who aren't militantly trying to enforce their playstyle then you go right ahead and do you. I remain happy that I've come across some logic here where I expected none.

[Goji1639]

Dude, you realize that the overwhelming majority of players on the forums are very much casual right? The difference is they aren't toxically casual.

But hey, if you ever want to discuss things somewhere else feel free to add me on discord. Maybe we would both be marginally less vapid in another setting and I'm willing to listen to just about anyone talk about this game cause I love it. I require zero backup, I'm holding the same opinions now that I did at the start of this thread specifically because I haven't been convinced otherwise.

swiftcastholy#9999

The overwhelming majority of players in forums are not casual. Casual players don't care enough about the game to sit in here talking about it all day; if the forums were for casuals they'd be packed. No, forums are usually where a relatively small group of veterans and tryhards hang out, usually to call everyone else in the game "bad" and make themselves feel hardcore. It's as true in this game as in every other MMO.

"Your argument has no merit because so many people agree with you" is my favourite Goji take of the day.



Oh my god it gets better. I'm so glad there are people who agree with me in this thread, otherwise I'd be too scared to disagree with the big bad Goji.

You know you've beat Goji in an argument because eventually he just moves on to increasingly insulting personal comments.

Your argument has no merit if all you can do to defend it is say "b-b-b-but... some people agree with me!!"

I do have a feeling that a lot of you wouldn't be nearly as brave in general, not just regarding me, if you didn't know you had a certain amount of support.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

The overwhelming majority of players in forums are not casual. Casual players don't care enough about the game to sit in here talking about it all day; if the forums were for casuals they'd be packed. No, forums are usually where a relatively small group of veterans and tryhards hang out, usually to call everyone else in the game "bad" and make themselves feel hardcore. It's as true in this game as in every other MMO.

Not every casual being interested in the forums =/= "forums are not for casuals"

Given all the bad gameplay coddling going around here, they ARE packed with them.

[Goji1639]

Not every casual being interested in the forums =/= "forums are not for casuals"

Given all the bad gameplay coddling going around here, they ARE packed with them.

There's maybe 10 people who actively participate in these discussions. Roughly 3 are just claiming you should try to help casual players in private if you're going to, because doing it in public is rude, and roughly 6-7 of you are saying "I don't care if I'm rude because blah blah tryhard bs!"

So yea, just a typically small community of not so casual players having the same discussions that happen on every MMO board.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

There's maybe 10 people who actively participate in these discussions. Roughly 3 are just claiming you should try to help casual players in private if you're going to, because doing it in public is rude, and roughly 6-7 of you are saying "I don't care if I'm rude because blah blah tryhard bs!"

So yea, just a typically small community of not so casual players having the same discussions that happen on every MMO board.

There's much more than 10 people actively participating on this thread on this thread alone. Those 3 are using a false excuse to coddle bad gameplay at best, and covering their own incompetence/laziness (or a mix of both) at worst, and the roughly 6-7 are just calling it out and advocating for a paradigm where everyone is much better off, and no one has to carry or be a burden to anyone else.

[Goji1639]

There's much more than 10 people actively participating on this thread on this thread alone. Those 3 are using a false excuse to coddle bad gameplay at best, and covering their own incompetence/laziness (or a mix of both) at worst, and the roughly 6-7 are just calling it out and advocating for a paradigm where everyone is much better off, and no one has to carry or be a burden to anyone else.

So, being polite is unacceptable because it coddles bad gameplay? That is a difficult position to defend; I hope your support system here is ready to help you with that.

Or you could just give advice in private; which is the socially responsible method that most people use, because it isn't as confrontational as picking someone apart in public is. If you choose to be rude people will respond to you as if you're being rude.

Geezus, Goji. Learn how to have a proper discussion with people you disagree with. Comments like that do not help you at all.

I've made my position here clear multiple times. Now that responses to my points are "people agree with me, so ha!" how serious and proper do you expect me to remain? This isn't a real discussion anymore.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

So, being polite is unacceptable because it coddles bad gameplay? That is a difficult position to defend; I hope your support system here is ready to help you with that.

Or you could just give advice in private; which is the socially responsible method that most people use, because it isn't as confrontational as picking someone apart in public is. If you choose to be rude people will respond to you as if you're being rude.

I'd question your support system, if you take any advice in public as a personal attack. Sounds like you can't handle criticism well.

You're coddling bad gameplay because giving advice in private to anyone who you come across is not only much more unwieldly but also completely unnecessary, so you'd rather forgo advicing in general.

[Veis_Alveare]

The overwhelming majority of players in forums are not casual. Casual players don't care enough about the game to sit in here talking about it all day; if the forums were for casuals they'd be packed. No, forums are usually where a relatively small group of veterans and tryhards hang out, usually to call everyone else in the game "bad" and make themselves feel hardcore. It's as true in this game as in every other MMO.


Your argument has no merit if all you can do to defend it is say "b-b-b-but... some people agree with me!!"

I do have a feeling that a lot of you wouldn't be nearly as brave in general, not just regarding me, if you didn't know you had a certain amount of support.

If you're so confident in this to keep saying it why haven't I I recieved anything on discord from you?

Is it because you know one of the only ways you even get to make an argument is to do so within the incredibly restrictive confines of what's available to talk about on the OF? And that if I were able to bring in data to support my points that you'd not have a leg to stand on?

Seriously, you dont get to act like we would all be intimidated to talk to you without backup when you literally won't accept my invitation to do that exact thing.

The truth is you are only able to make the claims you do because you're doing so in an environment that defends you by it's very terms of service.

So if you're intimated to speak to me outside of the forums that's fine, just dont go trying to project that fear onto others.

swiftcastholy#9999

[Goji1639]

If you're so confident in this to keep saying it why haven't I I recieved anything on discord from you?

Is it because you know one of the only ways you even get to make an argument is to do so within the incredibly restrictive confines of what's available to talk about on the OF? And that if I were able to bring in data to support my points that you'd not have a leg to stand on?

Seriously, you dont get to act like we would all be intimidated to talk to you without backup when you literally won't accept my invitation to do that exact thing.

The truth is you are only able to make the claims you do because you're doing so in an environment that defends you by it's very terms of service.

So if you're intimated to speak to me outside of the forums that's fine, just dont go trying to project that fear onto others.

swiftcastholy#9999

Why would I care to talk to you on discord? How exactly are the forum terms of service protecting me?

You're really flailing here, but in ways that I find interesting. Please elaborate on what difference discord would make.

And repeating that it is rude and calling people out isnt going to change things. Lets try to google this:



Providing someone advice, in the form of "Hey, you could do this and it would help." does not fall within the territory of criticism, a challenge, or forcing them to explain their actions. The issue you are running into is you are conflating criticism and calling someone out with advice.

It actually does fall into the category of criticism. Not all criticism is offered with bad intentions or an accusatory tone, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rude to do it in public.

I guess that's my post limit...

[Melichoir]

It actually does fall into the category of criticism. Not all criticism is offered with bad intentions or an accusatory tone, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rude to do it in public.

Under your logic, saying "Good Job" is criticism and is not discernible from any of the examples because Good Job is tacitly affirming the performance of a player. And remember, unsolicited criticism is not warranted; this would include positive feedback as well.

So dont say good job everyone at the end of a clear, cause thats a bad thing!

But seriously, Ive addressed this and gave you literally something out of a basic B google search and providing you with a short hand on "calling someone out". Ive given you 3 separate examples with different connotations and which ones fall within the realm of criticism, critique, and advice, and you are saying "Theyre all criticism cause if its not explicit, it's implicit." To advise is to criticize, and to criticize is not welcome. (And you keep shifting your meanings by saying it is calling someone out, and then falling back to a broader definition in criticism when I address that it's not calling someone out because quite literally the challenge aspect is missing)

You can say you have an issue with something between two parties that are not related. For example, if I were to be sitting there in Limsa and see a chat about having difficulty on F14 e5s and I chime in and say x, y, and z, you can say that was unsolicited and not welcome. It could be interpreted as rude. Well meaning or not, I am not part of that discussion or situation and do run the risk of being intrusive.

However, in cooperative group settings where we are all working together collectively to accomplish a goal, where we all have a common interest in completing a task in a timely and efficient manner, and those with more experience or expertise in an area provide advice to someone who is less experienced and it is apparent that they are, that is not in the same realm of context as the previous example. Particularly if the advice is that of generalities and is worded fine.

Again, it's not like we're suggesting raid strats and min max dps, but basic mechanics of both class and role in content where you have multiple participants. And the pushback is that "This is rude," because "how dare someone in a group environment where they have a stake in the outcomes say something about what Im doing, or attempt to help me out!" Hyperbolic and flippant, but that is how the counter argument comes across.