"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Vahlnir]

Welcome to real life, where if you participate in public group activities and you are lagging behind, people may comment and let you know as such. Furthermore, what is the point? If you go message them privately, youre still calling them out, informing them that you (and possibly other team mates) knew they werent up to snuff. Hell, if we're concerned with their feelings, the simple fact that you choose not to talk to them in party and rather afterwards can be construed as thinking theyre simple and fragile. That they couldnt handle being told something in front of others. It's patronizing!

To be completely fair, a more private message (like allowing /tells in instances for example) is probably a bit more ideal than calling someone out in front of a group of people. Calling someone out in party/alliance chat is more than likely going to put someone on the defensive rather quickly. A more personal approach might defuse a situation or keep a situation from occurring at all. If I had the choice between calling someone out in front of others or messaging them privately I would always choose /tells.

[Roda]

To be completely fair, a more private message (like allowing /tells in instances for example) is probably a bit more ideal than calling someone out in front of a group of people. Calling someone out in party/alliance chat is more than likely going to put someone on the defensive rather quickly. A more personal approach might defuse a situation or keep a situation from occurring at all. If I had the choice between calling someone out in front of others or messaging them privately I would always choose /tells.

Agreed, It absolutely boggles the mind that SE said they didn't allow whispering in instances because they didn't want people to harass others, when being harassed in whispers is the easiest thing to ignore ever.

[xxvaynxx]

Tbh.
I find more toxic casuals than elitism in this game in my time of playing.

It's rare that I find elitism in this game if I'm honest but I do find a**hole casual players in a dungeon or a ex primal.

[Bopsheezi]

This stupid thread is still going? GCBTW...

[Melichoir]

To be completely fair, a more private message (like allowing /tells in instances for example) is probably a bit more ideal than calling someone out in front of a group of people. Calling someone out in party/alliance chat is more than likely going to put someone on the defensive rather quickly. A more personal approach might defuse a situation or keep a situation from occurring at all. If I had the choice between calling someone out in front of others or messaging them privately I would always choose /tells.

The issue is two fold: What we define as "Calling out", and providing a learning opportunity for everyone involved.

The first is pretty straight-forward. Telling someone "Hey, if you do it this way, youll have more success" isnt 'calling someone out'. It's offering up advice to a player who is doing something that is less than efficient. Now if you go into it being like "Man you suck at tanking, you need to be doing x,y, and z", then you can call that what it is. But that goes back to not being a donkey.

The second one is probably whats more important. If youre in a party of sprouts, like legit ones, and you wait for 'afterwards' to say something, you may deny others the opportunity to learn that advice as well all for the sake that you may offend someone. And if youre in a party with one sprout and veterans, then you can more or less guess that if someone is making large enough mistakes, the vets can see it too and know. Youre not sparing anyone at that point.

If the debate is about how you phrase things, thats one thing. But if its about "Welllll, dont say anything cause you may offend someone or you should be extra extra carefully and say it in tells and whispers and what not!" then my initial suggestion is the same:

Just say what needs to be said and stop enabling bad gameplay and behavior. Dont be an ass about it, but be polite and direct. It benefits everyone in the end.

[Silica-chan]

This stupid thread is still going? GCBTW...

These type of threads pop up from time to time whenever there is not much "new" content to do in the game. Eventually it will die once the new patch is up, or the Mods just take it like the last one.

[Daibunnie]

It's like I said, if the run is going fine what's the point in starting crap with someone by calling them out in front of the group? It's just spite at that point, and if the run is going fine I don't see any need to grind it to a halt just so you can get your revenge.

"Going fine" is subjective and I believe the majority will agree that a run isn't going fine if more resources that necessary are expended due to someone's inept skill.

It's one lazy healer you'll probably never see again. His punishment is the fact that everything he runs is going to take 5-10 minutes longer than it has to. If that's not good enough for you then do whatever you need to feel vindicated, but wait until after the run so you're not involving everyone else.

Excusing that one lazy healer means you're excusing all of them and advocating that they get carried rather than having their party members call them out on mistakes that they refuse to call out themselves.

If the content actually starts getting challenging then it'll make sense to feel like we need to elevate the community. As of right now all of the whining is just petty. The community as a whole is perfectly fine for the current difficulty of 90% of this games content.

Double standards much? Anyway, the fact that they nerfed content like Thunder God and Mist Dragon shows that the majority of the community isn't suited for content that involves some semblance of teamwork.

No. Random party members' performances would still not be important enough to me to say anything about it. I would just change how i approach the content, doing it with friends if failures became too common-place (they wouldn't. I rarely have a run of any dungeon content that deviates more than 3-5 minutes in either direction)

So it is important to you. You would just rather leave silently for a more competent party. Either way, be glad that a decent number of people would rather give free advice than immediately resorting to kicking problem players that'll most likely keep getting kicked otherwise.

[Laesha]

Again. No. The performance of other random players is not important to me. They are able to play however they want, and do whatever they want and I completely support that.

I just accept that completing my goals is my responsibility, not theirs.

And no, I take no joy in knowing that people will continue to give out unsolicited advice that is mostly bad, incorrect, or incomplete.

Edit - I find it particularly strange that people defend the "unsolicited" part so vehemently. All anyone ever has to do is ask "would you like some guidance with this?" "want to hear some cool tips for [insert job here]". Or as others have suggested, if there are several players "would anyone like some pointers on..." It's so easy. It's SO easy. If you get a "no", that's the end. Any additional advice is unsolicited and confirmed to be unwelcome. If you get a "yes" then suddenly the advice is solicited and you can go absolutely bananas. When i give advice, it is under these circumstances. Though in general I prefer people to just be quiet and play.

https://me.me/i/dont-say-a-word-to-m...dc3ef9e0825feb

[Melichoir]

Again. No. The performance of other random players is not important to me. They are able to play however they want, and do whatever they want and I completely support that.

You say that pretty casually. I personally dont like almost wiping on Titan Hard, or taking an hour to complete a dungeon cause other players refuse to address pretty easy fixes to gameplay that would drastically improve performance (such as a tank using a CD when pulling 3 or more enemies). Or that the way you complete a mechanic is doing x and y.

No one is suggesting you give a step by step breakdown of raid strats for sastasha. Theyre suggesting when a problem is present to address said problem when you have the experience to do so.

And no, I take no joy in knowing that people will continue to give out unsolicited advice that is mostly bad, incorrect, or incomplete.

If you know the feedback is faulty, why not say something? Why just remain quiet? Same with observing an issue.

Edit - I find it particularly strange that people defend the "unsolicited" part so vehemently. All anyone ever has to do is ask "would you like some guidance with this?" "want to hear some cool tips for [insert job here]". Or as others have suggested, if there are several players "would anyone like some pointers on..." It's so easy. It's SO easy. If you get a "no", that's the end. Any additional advice is unsolicited and confirmed to be unwelcome. If you get a "yes" then suddenly the advice is solicited and you can go absolutely bananas. When i give advice, it is under these circumstances. Though in general I prefer people to just be quiet and play.

Or We can just cut to the chase and say something instead of tip toeing around something cause "How dare someone tell me something that might help me! Who do they think they are!?"

This kind of mentality of "Be overly polite and courteous" gets in the way of actually getting things resolved. What's so hard or bad about someone telling you something and you saying "Thanks!"? Why is it we have to overly couch something simple in meaningless conversation that opens the door for more misunderstanding?

Instead the suggestion is if you dont say anything at all, that you should tip toe, be vague, and be overly 'polite' cause being polite but direct is somehow a sinful taboo, especially if the time and considerations of others is at stake.

[Laesha]

If you are short on time and need to quit the titan HM run. then do so. Your limited time is your problem.

Instead the suggestion is if you dont say anything at all, that you should tip toe, be vague, and be overly 'polite' cause being polite but direct is somehow a sinful taboo, especially if the time and considerations of others is at stake.

And to me, this is not "overly" polite. This is "basic" politeness. Maybe it was just how i was raised, but for me, manners are very important. One can rail (and has railed) all they want about other people not having good manners by not playing well, but as i've stated over and over, that is not something one can control. I can control how polite I am. While you may value directness and bluntness, I do not. I value method and manner, and it is on that premise that I am more likely to vote to dismiss the unsolicited advisor than anyone playing poorly. I will not thank someone for giving me unsolicited advice, because it is usually wrong. There is nothing for which I should be grateful. I do not bother correcting or discussing, because I am not there to contend with people who want to make themselves feel better by "helping." I think all of that leads to it being a matter of trust as well. I have good reason to assume that advice being doled out is incorrect based on the overwhelming number of instances in which it was, indeed, incorrect. So not only do i associate unsolicited advice with bad manners and being rude, I also associate it with players who are really just talking to hear themselves talk.

Also, "sinful taboo" melodramatic much? It's rude. It's not criminal. Like chewing with your mouth open, not returning your shopping cart, or picking your nose and wiping it on a public bench. I don't think most people hate it or are "offended" by it. I suspect the feelings that arise are more closely mapped to disgust. And if i'm wrong and only speaking for myself, those are certainly my sentiments.

And while we are on the topic of considering other players' time (which in my opinion is very ironic when it comes to this topic), I would rather work my way through a dungeon with a heal-bot (it can literally be a bot), than have some loudmouth start telling a healer to spam holy and have them get annoyed and quit, thus leaving me stuck in a party with an empty healer role that may not fill. Any time they could possibly have saved by taking the unsolicited advice is dwarfed dramatically by the additional time now required by the group to wait for a replacement, or worse, simply start over in a new q. I will always take quiet and smooth.