"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Goji1639]

If my co-worker is doing his job wrong I don't care one bit if we're in front of the entire workplace, I'm going to approach him and offer a suggestion on how to do it better. Obviously you don't ridicule them, you offer help. The two are very different things and it seems to me that you're incapable of differentiating between the two; this makes you part of the problem this community has.

Then you're socially inept.

This is an ESPECIALLY bad thing to do in front of co-workers; you take them aside and offer help, you don't just blurt out everything they're struggling with to everyone in the office. It's just kind of a dick thing to do in a game, but if you've ever actually done that to someone at their job I wouldn't be surprised if they smacked you, lol.

Edit: This probably came off a bit more confrontational than I intended, but point being it's a bad thing to do.

[Veis_Alveare]

Then you're socially inept.

This is an ESPECIALLY bad thing to do in front of co-workers; you take them aside and offer help, you don't just blurt out everything they're struggling with to everyone in the office. It's just kind of a dick thing to do in a game, but if you've ever actually done that to someone at their job I wouldn't be surprised if they smacked you, lol.

Edit: This probably came off a bit more confrontational than I intended, but point being it's a bad thing to do.

The comparison is poor to begin with - you will presumably need to work with coworkers in the future, DF pugs are people they're unlucky to encounter again and thus there is no lasting stigma to them being corrected in front of them.

The point remains, if anyone's ego is that fragile they should probably figure out what's going on with them to make it so.

[Kanjien]

The comparison is poor to begin with - you will presumably need to work with coworkers in the future, DF pugs are people they're unlucky to encounter again and thus there is no lasting stigma to them being corrected in front of them.

The point remains, if anyone's ego is that fragile they should probably figure out what's going on with them to make it so.

Calling someone out in front of a group is never a good idea. Leadership 101 - praise in public, coach in private.
That being said the issue of fragile ego's is obviously a societal issue since we have the need of safe spaces and children who are irreparably harmed by the color of a band-aid.

[Skivvy]

I think being called out in front of strangers is something that always has a decent chance of being interpreted as a slight, especially if it was unnecessary. So, if the run is going fine the only reason to call someone out is to be a dick.

"Fine" is a relative term. Just because mobs are dying and the group is progressing, that doesn't mean that everything is necessarily OK. Carrying people through content is an easy thing to do and happens quite often.

Also, trying to help someone is not inherently a 'dick move'. Some people genuinely like to try and help out, and there is nothing wrong with that. Communicating with your group isn't an awful thing to do. I personally don't chime in often unless something is glaringly wrong (e.g. my Qarn & AV runs last week where the DPS and I (as healer) kept tanking mobs), but I'm not expecting everyone else to go about things the same way i do.

I think it helps to give people the benefit of the doubt that they're giving the advice out of a desire to be helpful, and not be an arse. I could be very wrong, but I feel like you believe the opposite to be true.

[Goji1639]

The comparison is poor to begin with - you will presumably need to work with coworkers in the future, DF pugs are people they're unlucky to encounter again and thus there is no lasting stigma to them being corrected in front of them.

The point remains, if anyone's ego is that fragile they should probably figure out what's going on with them to make it so.

This is just something to keep in mind.

When you're giving advice to someone in a public setting it's not just "I'm being so nice and helpful, yay me!" What you're actually doing is singling someone out and announcing their shortcomings in front of a group of strangers. Understand what that means; why it will often be received poorly and why it's something you probably shouldn't do for frivolous reasons.

I think it helps to give people the benefit of the doubt that they're giving the advice out of a desire to be helpful, and not be an arse. I could be very wrong, but I feel like you believe the opposite to be true.

I mainly just don't like unnecessary drama in my runs.

Regardless of your intentions, calling someone out in front of other people will always be a contentious thing to do. That's why it's considered common courtesy offer critiques in private; picking someone apart in public has always been considered rude and likely always will be.

I'm not saying there's no context that would justify you speaking up; just don't do it for petty reasons.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

This is just something to keep in mind.

When you're giving advice to someone in a public setting it's not just "I'm being so nice and helpful, yay me!" What you're actually doing is singling someone out and announcing their shortcomings in front of a group of strangers. Understand what that means; why it will often be received poorly and why it's something you probably shouldn't do for frivolous reasons.

Odds are the group of strangers is also aware of the issue.

Also nice smokescreen so you never get called out on your willful ignorance. "Just claim advice is calling you out in front of people and you'll get carried through everything easy".

People feeling offended by advice shouldn't be an excuse to never give out advice, the same way there's no point in assuming every underperformer you come across is someone with a disability (like some people here instantly jump to).

Giving advice isn't inherently wrong. In fact, acting out because you were given advice makes you out to be pompous and rude: someone who always needs to be in the right.

[Goji1639]

Odds are the group of strangers is also aware of the issue.

Also nice smokescreen so you never get called out on your willful ignorance. "Just claim advice is calling you out in front of people and you'll get carried through everything easy".

People feeling offended by advice shouldn't be an excuse to never give out advice, the same way there's no point in assuming every underperformer you come across is someone with a disability (like some people here instantly jump to).

Giving advice isn't inherently wrong. In fact, acting out because you were given advice makes you out to be pompous and rude: someone who always needs to be in the right.

I feel like I'm always forced to give you the exact same response.

You don't have to run with anyone you don't want to. Vote kick if you feel like you're carrying and it bothers you. Leave if you can't vote kick. In no circumstance are you EVER forced to carry people.

Calling out people in public is rude, no matter how good your intentions are. Sometimes it's justified if the run is a disaster, but there's no reason to be rude if the run is going fine.

[Vahlnir]

For me personally, since it only happens ever so rarely, I just don't find it worth it to get so upset about it. So it happens every once in a while, very rarely. Is it really worth it to lose your hair over it? Not for me, personally. Just carry through and move on to the next thing. Like I said, I don't pretend that I am this perfect player who always do things smooth every time I play, I am sure my mistakes cause discomfort to others too, so why should I be angry when other makes mistakes too?

And besides, people screwing up mixes things up, making things more exciting rather than business as usual, hahah.

I don't get upset about it either. There is literally nothing I or anyone can do in that situation to make it better. That doesn't stop it from being annoying though. Ideally, there shouldn't be situations like this at all where we have to grin and bear it, but such is life with the rest of the human race. This thread (and the previous one) are just a good place to give my opinion on the matter.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

I feel like I'm always forced to give you the exact same response.

You don't have to run with anyone you don't want to. Vote kick if you feel like you're carrying and it bothers you. Leave if you can't vote kick. In no circumstance are you EVER forced to carry people.

Calling out people in public is rude, no matter how good your intentions are. Sometimes it's justified if the run is a disaster, but there's no reason to be rude if the run is going fine.

I'd rather give the person a chance to correct their mistake instead of outright kicking.

Giving advice is only considered rude by self absorbed people, who don't care about anyone else but them, and can't handle having their flaws pointed out (even in private).

[Melichoir]

This is just something to keep in mind.

When you're giving advice to someone in a public setting it's not just "I'm being so nice and helpful, yay me!" What you're actually doing is singling someone out and announcing their shortcomings in front of a group of strangers. Understand what that means; why it will often be received poorly and why it's something you probably shouldn't do for frivolous reasons.

Welcome to real life, where if you participate in public group activities and you are lagging behind, people may comment and let you know as such. Furthermore, what is the point? If you go message them privately, youre still calling them out, informing them that you (and possibly other team mates) knew they werent up to snuff. Hell, if we're concerned with their feelings, the simple fact that you choose not to talk to them in party and rather afterwards can be construed as thinking theyre simple and fragile. That they couldnt handle being told something in front of others. It's patronizing!

See, if we play this game of "Well your best intentions can be wrong and hurt feelings!", the suitable option is to say absolutely nothing and let the problem persist, and even then it has issues (such as the harsh reality that a player thinks theyre doing well and tries to go into Savage content only to be rudely awakened to the fact that they are definitely not up to snuff).

Just like the last thread, best option is to address issues as you see them. Plain and simple. You only can control what you say and do, you cant control how the other person feels and acts in response. If they think your rude, or become upset, or throw it back in your face, thats on them (so long as youre not being overtly unreasonable or rude - ex: "God you suck so much. Git gud or uninstall you loser!").

Need to stop behaving like we have to tip toe around problems cause "I might hurt other peoples feelings." Just say what needs to be said and stop enabling bad gameplay and behavior. Dont be an ass about it, but be polite and direct. It benefits everyone in the end.