"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Melichoir]

In regards to critique, criticism, and advice:

...It actually does fall into the category of criticism. Not all criticism is offered with bad intentions or an accusatory tone, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rude to do it in public.

Then you say:

Critique isn't the same as criticism. Critique can be outlining a positive, whereas criticism is always outlining a negative. Advice is always outlining a negative, so it's criticism. There's no different ways to interpret it, so no matter how hard you try to play at semantics it won't work.

So consider exactly what you just stated now vs what you initially stated:

Critique can be outlining a positive (but may also outline negatives as part of the nature of a critique is to review and analyze both successes and failures), where a criticism is always outlining a negative. This would entail that all criticisms can fall under critiques, but not all critiques can be a criticism. Which if you noticed what I quoted you from above, is the inverse of what you previously stated - all Critiques are part of criticisms, but not all criticisms are part of critiques.

The nature of a critique is that you will be looking for areas of improvement or faults, where you have failed and succeeded. To give feedback. This would mean, tacitly, that to tell someone "Good Job!" on a clear, that you are critiquing their performance (even if it is positive), which under your initial statement, is a criticism and therefore "...doesnt change the fact that it's rude to do it in public".

Im being specific about this because I want to stop you from flopping about on criticism, critique, and advice and stick to one single position regarding it. So yes, semantics matter here.

Either way, you dug yourself into a hole. Youre subjectively qualifying what is an acceptable critique vs what isnt based on what you perceive as a positive - which can vary from person to person, or you maintain that all critiques are criticisms and therefore no nos. Either way, you run the risk of offending and being rude to the recipient. Even if you said "Good Job!" on a clear, they can take that as "Good Job? I sucked. Stop patronizing me." or "Good Job? What about all those other times?" or "Good Job? I did excellent. Stop putting me down."

In all cases, even your best efforts to not offend and mean well have been interpreted as negative results. Because you cant control what other people think. Even if it is ridiculous

For all your best efforts to avoid offence, you cannot in any way, shape, or form guarantee that you will. Which makes the whole idea of "Oh, its polite to not say anything in front of others if you have criticisms/critiques/advice/etc." moot because the foundation of your point is that you are trying to spare embarrassment, feelings, drama, or etc, but since you cant control this, and other factors are to be considered (like how your fellow players feel, or promoting bad play, or seeing the opportunity for a teaching moment in a co-op environment, or treating your fellow player like a mature adult, or making sure the run goes relatively smooth and not waste time,).

No one is suggesting being an ass. That obviously doesnt work.

What is being suggested that rather than being overly polite, making a ton of assumptions, and deciding discourse based on what someone else feels, to just speak politely but freely in the moment. Because it matters to everyone involved. You think someone may feel bitter for throwing out a suggestion or advice, think how bitter tehyre gonna feel when they wipe the group cause something they did wrong and no one bothered to say a thing up til then.

[Daibunnie]

No, criticizing people in public is bad manners, period.

I find it laughable that you're calling communication in a mmo bad manners.

Mentoring is a different situation entirely. If you're positioned as a teacher in what's positioned as a classroom then it's socially acceptable to offer criticism without much formality, in your defined role as teacher.

Lmao as if the burger king hat is an indicator of someone being able to "teach." You know why a good chunk of people choose to be a mentor? To get access to the roulette for the free mount eventually.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Criticizing people in public isn't rude or bad manners. The only people claiming so are people who take any advice, criticism or any kind of input as an attack, whether it was given in public or private. Ofc they'd claim it's rude so they avoid having any advice given.

SE's mentor system hinges on players giving advice to players during duties (independently of how the playerbase misuses the system). Nothing in there says "give advice only in private, because it's rude otherwise"

In theory, yes, a respected, respectful person giving good advice in public is fine when they've been chosen for that role through a long path of education and training, which includes sensitivity. But even teachers, the people most qualified to give good advice, don't read out people's assignments in front of the class while pointing out every flaw, and when they do go over problems in assignments most of the time it's anonymously.

Problem is, the 'good' players in MMOs are neither qualified or chosen to give good advice. It's unwelcome advice to begin with, and it's almost always given in the worst way possible. Half the time it doesn't have anything of value and is just meant to insult or shift the blame, it's generally just a way for people to point a finger at someone and say 'that guy is the reason we are failing'. The reason players tend to look so negatively at people giving 'criticism' in games is experience; players in this thread can try all they want to portray those that give 'advice' in game to the bads as saints, but the reality is in game it's rarely done in a way that's even remotely pleasant, and it even more rarely actually contains useful advice.

I'm not going to say it can never happen- but rudely given criticism or straight out player bashing is so common in multi player games that I can't really fault anyone who thinks the norm of bad faith 'advice' is the norm- because it's the norm.

If you have a common problem of giving 'criticism' but not realizing that you're coming off as rude, chances are pretty good that you're regularly offering useless advice in a rude manner. It's sadly the norm for poor social skills to think that your way of communicating with others is the right way when you're pissing everyone off. Communication isn't a one way street, but the person giving 'advice' seems to always think that it is in MMOs. Keep in mind when you call someone out for doing something wrong, or failing in some way- you're doing it for yourself to let off steam, not to actually help the other person- and it's obvious, and that is part of why people can't stand you when you do it.

[Goji1639]

snip

Advice is criticism; I'm not flopping between them, I'm simply using the words interchangeably because they are interchangeable. Both are outlining negative performance, and it's inconsiderate criticize a negative in public. A critique in public could be inconsiderate if the critique is negative; but the rule is to address positives in public and negatives in private. That's the etiquette that's generally expected when working with other people.

You not being able to control what people think doesn't matter. What you're basically saying is that people can interpret anything in any way, so etiquette doesn't exist. That's ridiculous; the fact that people can still take offense at a more polite approach doesn't negate the value or purpose of being polite.

As for believing it can be better to be rude than to be quiet in some situations, that obviously depends. If it's critical then courtesy may need to take a backseat to urgency; if the healers not healing or the tank isn't in tank stance then say something. If you want to note that someone's not playing optimally, or is being lazy, in a non-urgent context, though, then address it in private. Simple stuff.

[Goji1639]

I find it laughable that you're calling communication in a mmo bad manners.



Lmao as if the burger king hat is an indicator of someone being able to "teach." You know why a good chunk of people choose to be a mentor? To get access to the roulette for the free mount eventually.

I don't call all communication in MMO's bad mannered; just the bad mannered stuff.

Also, the hat doesn't indicate someone is qualified to teach, it just indicates that they've been assigned as a teacher. When you've been assigned to be a teacher then you have authority to teach; which changes the social etiquette of delivering criticism.

False. You can give feedback to a player that may be struggling to grasp their class in a dungeon without it coming off as rude. It's not rude to try and help people. There's no bad manners about it. I ask my groups if there's anything I can do to improve at the end of a dungeon. Sometimes they leave complements, constructive feedback, or just say nothing at all! We as players shouldn't be afraid of constructive criticism. If it's mindless name calling? Sure, that's rude and bad manners. But to simply offer some advice that could be helpful? I find it helpful. I found out many neat tips from other players because they felt like sharing.

Things that aren't intended to be rude can still be rude.

If i were to walk up to you and your friends and publicly offer you some polite advice to help with your bedwetting problem, that would be rude of me. You address problems with people in private; that's basic social etiquette.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Problem is, the 'good' players in MMOs are not qualified to give good advice.

You're joking, right? You have to be joking because this is the single funniest thing I've ever heard in regards to this game.

[Shalan]

When you guys do any physical activity, like sports or going to the gym, do you view others (who aren't professionals or trainers) that see you struggling/using equipment improperly and subsequently offering advice as being condescending and rude?
It's unsolicited, public, and by your definitions is rude, patronizing, and is actually an attempt to shame you in front of others. But have you ever considered it may come from a genuine place of concern or understanding and desire to see you do better and not

just meant to insult or shift the blame...generally just a way for people to point a finger at someone and say 'that guy is the reason we are failing'

[Goji1639]

The fact that you equate bedwetting to being told you're playing a video game wrong is extremely telling. They are on different levels. It's not black and white. Anyone who continues arguing with Goji is as big a muffin as he is.

They may be on different levels of rude, but both are still rude. Airing peoples problems in public is rude, whether it's a small one or a big one.

When you guys do any physical activity, like sports or going to the gym, do you view others (who aren't professionals or trainers) that see you struggling/using equipment improperly and subsequently offering advice as being condescending and rude?
It's unsolicited, public, and by your definitions is rude, patronizing, and is actually an attempt to shame you in front of others. But have you ever considered it may come from a genuine place of concern or understanding and desire to see you do better and not

If you have some advice for someone at the gym pull them aside, or say it quietly just to them. Yes, it's absolutely rude to announce what someone is doing wrong in front of the entire establishment. lol, what's wrong with you people.

[Doozer]

When you guys do any physical activity, like sports or going to the gym, do you view others (who aren't professionals or trainers) that see you struggling/using equipment improperly and subsequently offering advice as being condescending and rude?
It's unsolicited, public, and by your definitions is rude, patronizing, and is actually an attempt to shame you in front of others. But have you ever considered it may come from a genuine place of concern or understanding and desire to see you do better and not

Sometimes the 'advice' given isn't done in a very tactful way. Sometimes when someone sees you using equipment wrong they laugh and just call you an idiot, or go, "you know you're using that wrong, right?" but don't actually help.

I wish people would realize that the 'advice' given by players in this game isn't always friendly or actually helpful at all. Rude people do exist and often seem more plentiful because they're louder. If something comes from a "genuine place of concern" or whatever, they would actually be nice about it. If you have to tell yourself that maybe they mean well besides being a huge jerk, the problem lies with the advice-giver, not the receiver.

[Shalan]

Sometimes the 'advice' given isn't done in a very tactful way. Sometimes when someone sees you using equipment wrong they laugh and just call you an idiot, or go, "you know you're using that wrong, right?" but don't actually help.

I wish people would realize that the 'advice' given by players in this game isn't always friendly or actually helpful at all. Rude people do exist and often seem more plentiful because they're louder. If something comes from a "genuine place of concern" or whatever, they would actually be nice about it. If you have to tell yourself that maybe they mean well besides being a huge jerk, the problem lies with the advice-giver, not the receiver.

We have acknowledged that already in this conversation, but we've been met with the idea that any unsolicited advice is negative as it's airing something negative to the public. Of course rude or empty statements like those you listed are pointless and/or offensive but it's generally not what we're talking about. Even friendly, tact, or brief advice is being seen as hostile or treated as if it belies some sort of underhanded remark, even if it's made in the utmost sincerity. And that's an issue.