"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[ForteNightshade]

snip

It is neither rude nor incorrect to tell someone they should AoE. Likewise, I shouldn't have to sugarcoat how I say it with "please" and "thank you." Frankly, if you've made it to 50+ and still haven't bothered to read what your abilities do, I find that far more disrespectful because it tells me you either don't care or are lazy. If someone is playing their job of choice wrong, it also isn't rude to correct them or advise they look up a guide. Rotations in this game are essentially binary with some exceptions. You're either doing it correctly or you're not. The point Melichoir and many others are making is that many people do act like any sort of criticism is an indictment on them as a person.

Chewing with your mouth open or not returning a shopping cart aren't comparable because they ultimately impact nobody. Playing a cooperative video game with other people where your performance can change their enjoyment does.

What defines a "loudmouth"? Because telling a healer to Holy large packs once or twice certainly wouldn't in my book. If they left as a result of my telling them to AoE. They're a little bit too sensitive as far as I'm concerned. But you do you, I suppose.

[Veis_Alveare]

The thing is... no one cares that you guys don't approve of unsolicited advice.

You've convinced no one and changed no one's mind on the topic, at least no one who's spoken up. With the paltry attempts at arguments that you guys are making I can say you're quite unlikely to.

The difference is you can keep playing as you want and we will also do that. That will mean, on the part of the competent players here who care to, that we will continue to give out advice as we see fit. There is absolutely nothing you could do to stop me short of convincing me otherwise, we aren't even on the same DC for you guys to kick me because my main is on Primal.

I would never try to get you to advise anyone on anything in the game. People who don't want to help shouldn't be forced or even encouraged to, it only breeds resentment. That's to say nothing of my opinions on your ability to give good advice (which honestly is questionable given the evidence present) but it's purely based on your desire not to.

So keep being silent, it's fine. You don't need to help. Doesn't change the way I'm approaching these problems.

[Laesha]

The thing is... no one cares that you guys don't approve of unsolicited advice.

Sure, and no one cares that you have arbitrary standards of what constitutes acceptable play. The difference is, based on all of the bad arguments that you guys make, it seems like you really need the rest of us to care about your standards. If it didn't matter and you didn't need the community to buy into your stance of arbitrarily required levels of play, then there would be no reason for you to constantly beg and plead and argue with the community about what is and is not acceptable. You wouldn't need to work so hard to convince everyone that they need to change their play style to accommodate your wants. That's what your entire argument is based on, that other people need to change. That playing at a higher level is desirable, or even good. But you're right, no one cares about your feelings, and they won't change the way that I approach unsolicited advisors and people who cause trouble when there doesn't have to be.

I'm not here to convince you of anything. I joined the conversation to seek clarity (and some answers were thought provoking and interesting), but also to add my voice of support to those who generally spurn unsolicited advice.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Sure, and no one cares that you have arbitrary standards of what constitutes acceptable play. The difference is, based on all of the bad arguments that you guys make, it seems like you really need the rest of us to care about your standards. If it didn't matter and you didn't need the community to buy into your stance of arbitrarily required levels of play, then there would be no reason for you to constantly beg and plead and argue with the community about what is and is not acceptable. You wouldn't need to work so hard to convince everyone that they need to change their play style to accommodate your wants. That's what your entire argument is based on, that other people need to change. That playing at a higher level is desirable, or even good. But you're right, no one cares about your feelings, and they won't change the way that I approach unsolicited advisors and people who cause trouble when there doesn't have to be.

I'm not here to convince you of anything. I joined the conversation to seek clarity (and some answers were thought provoking and interesting), but also to add my voice of support to those who generally spurn unsolicited advice.

Except playing at a higher level is both desirable and good for all parties involved.

Also tiptoeing around issues and pretending they don't exist is how they grow and become more problematic (i.e.: we need very easy mode for solo instances because even though I main WHM, it's too hard to both DPS and move out of AoEs at the same time, as Y'shtola. And yes, there was a thread like this here.)

[Laesha]

Except playing at a higher level is both desirable and good for all parties involved.

Also tiptoeing around issues and pretending they don't exist is how they grow and become more problematic (i.e.: we need very easy mode for solo instances because even though I main WHM, it's too hard to both DPS and move out of AoEs at the same time, as Y'shtola. And yes, there was a thread like this here.)

I disagree. While I personally enjoy it, if someone does not want to play at higher levels, it is neither desirable or good for them. The moment the game becomes more stressful than enjoyable, I feel they are perfectly within their bounds to stop there. Sufficient is sufficient. If that is what maximizes their enjoyment then that is what they should do. If my goals do not line up with theirs, I simply take responsibility and remove myself because my goals are not their problem. Just like the player in your little meme removes himself to find someone else with whom to play.

And no, this tip-toe argument is silly. Asking a yes or no question before dispensing advice is not "tip-toe'ing". It is basic politeness. You merely ask, and then respond based on the answer. For me it makes all the difference in the world when I see someone who seems as though they may be open to advice. Direct question, direct response, direct advise. No "tip-toe'ing" involved.

[Melichoir]

snips

Its not basic manners to remain silent and let things continue to go poorly. It is apathy at best, and cruelty at worse. Your position paints you into the corner that would rather let players continue poorly than take any initiative, especially if you have experience in that area. And the idea that suggestions are always or mostly poor (which speaks volumes how you really feel about the player base and their potential), then it falls upon you to correct it than to let it slide if you have the knowledge to do so. Refusal to do so, again, is simply being apathetic or cruel.

Sure, and no one cares that you have arbitrary standards of what constitutes acceptable play.

Except a lot of people do care. Very few people want to spend the full 90 minutes in a dungeon, and it annoys a great deal of moderately experienced players when they see a healer stand there and do nothing for a few GCDs, or a tank not use a single CD, or a DPS inappropriately AoE.

The difference is, based on all of the bad arguments that you guys make, it seems like you really need the rest of us to care about your standards. If it didn't matter and you didn't need the community to buy into your stance of arbitrarily required levels of play, then there would be no reason for you to constantly beg and plead and argue with the community about what is and is not acceptable. You wouldn't need to work so hard to convince everyone that they need to change their play style to accommodate your wants. That's what your entire argument is based on, that other people need to change. That playing at a higher level is desirable, or even good. But you're right, no one cares about your feelings, and they won't change the way that I approach unsolicited advisors and people who cause trouble when there doesn't have to be.

Cause if we didnt speak up, the standard would be press one button and that is acceptable. This isnt an arbitrary standard, this is a "Hey, these things make it easier on everyone." standard. Again, we arent saying you need to have raid strats to do content at the casual level, but that you should have enough understanding and ability to do stuff fairly efficiently. And if we think the error being made is due to a lack of experience or knowledge, us offering up advice is a sign of good will and to help.

We have a standard, an easy one that is achievable by most any player. Your position is to what? Just let players do whatever they want, even if its detrimental to the experience of others? To kick someone who is trying to offer up solutions to a problem and make things progress more smoothly for everyone? To push back against the idea of having some kind of basic standard of what should be expected of players at end game content, savage or not? Sounds pretty good /s.

[Nestama]

The most I will ask for is to at least play the Job how it's intended to be played. You don't have to play it at Savage or even Extreme levels, but at least knowing what your buttons do and how they affect your Job is the bare minimum to me. A SAM freestyling and pressing random buttons is just bad play, as it means they're not getting the damage and haste buffs and likely will never get their Triforce Slash Attack. RDM spamming Jolt II, or hardcasting Verthunder/aero. Ice Mages, no DPS healers, single target tanks, no AoE DPS, Bio-blaster being used on single target instead of Drill, etc.

Also sometimes people don't respond because they might be on PS4 and do not have a keyboard connected (or they don't understand your language, but that's for both PS4 and PC). Sure, they could use emotes, but then they have to find the Yes or No emote.

[Laesha]

...

Cruelty would be like, giving bad advice that makes them worse because I think i'm smarter than I am. Apathy, perhaps. But that's consistent with everything in my position that no one owes anyone anything. The manners come in with my assumption that they are doing what they are doing purposefully and that they are doing it for a reason (maybe a sad reason in real life that i dont' know. maybe they are distracted. as long as we are finishing the duty it's of little consequence to me) If they seem receptive and friendly, I may ask if they want advice. if they do I share it to the best of my ability and point them toward my sources just in case i'm wrong. The idea that because I gain a quick understand of mechanics, know how to do basic addition with my ability potencys, and enjoy reading the work people put into say the Balance discord, doesn't give me any responsibility to the community at large to somehow elevate other people's standard of play. The responsibility is to elevate my own. The lovely people who write class guides and full rotations and simply post them for people to find don't have a responsibility to do those things. They do it out of kindness, and they do not throw it at anyone in an unsolicited manner. It's in a specific place, for seekers to find.

As far as "a lot of people caring," I will believe it when i see it. I've been with the game since the ARR launch and I almost never see these people who care so much that they are willing to kick players in a roulette for playing badly. (party finder is a different story, and that's it's a discussion all on it's own. I believe that is significantly closer to what people argue constitutes a social contract, but i digress...). I see more people spouting off "advice" and making my run longer and more obnoxious with unnecessary drama and getting kicked. If there were such a large number as you say that cared about this, should it not be the other way around? Should not I be seeing advice constantly? Should not it be a mainstay of leveling roulette? Should not those who spurn it be getting kicked more often than not? I see none of this.

Personally, I think you're giving yourself far too much credit with the whole "if it weren't for us..." thing, but u know... pat yourself on the back. This seems really important to you.

And yeah, my position is that my goals, are my problem and no one else's. If i want something specific, then i take it upon myself to find that thing, whether it be players who share my goals, information about the game, theorycrafting, numbers, measures, etc.

[Veis_Alveare]

nonsense

The thing is you're not changing anything, you're just wasting your time.

For things to continue as I want them to all I need is to maintain the status quo. I can keep helping people suck less and encouraging others to do the same. Meanwhile you've come in here, whined a bunch and just cemented the opinions of the people you disagree with.

Good job? Lol

[Laesha]

Right, and you've done exactly the same.

All i have to do is maintain my status quo as well. And the great thing is, i don't even have to do anything to do it, I guess.

What status quo? People ignore it all the time when Healers don't DPS in roulettes, or Bards don't use songs, tanks pull small, etc. I see people being "lazy" all the time, and the most common response is silence unless something goes wrong.

Cheers? *clink*

edit - i wouldn't say I've wasted time. I've enjoyed reading some opinions that have been expressed in the replies to me. That seems like as much as anyone could hope for on a forum. Particularly, Shalan and Melichoir, thank you for your very thoughtful replies.