"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Skivvy]

Don't be trying to use whatever "support" one side may be getting to either push or detract from an argument. You're both doing the same thing, just on opposite sides, and it's petty as hell. And lets not go tossing everyone into one tidy group just because they may agree on some points.

[LaughingBanana]

-snip-

Well, I have said it before that unlike some (many, even, most probably) of you in here I have not accumulated thousands of hours or years of playing this game, like heck I only have Warrior, White Mage, and Dancer at 80 with Gunblade at 78 but so far I have yet not seen my expectations of people playing at the very least passable level "are shattered on an alarmingly high basis"--you say this as if you are constantly having people playing like idiots in almost every content you're jumping in--and maybe you do have such an experience, I don't know--but my own experience is not like that--in fact people are more often saying "I'm sorry" or "I apologize" when they do something that gets them or the team in a bad position.

Also, I think you are somewhat biased in your reasoning. I see you see yourself as the one standing at the side of "people giving advice" and that's fine, but you standing there makes you biased in thinking that the people "giving advice" are always giving them in a "polite and calm manner" and the ones making the issue are always the people "receiving the advice". Do other people playing with you always respond rudely when you give them advice? Does none of them actually respond in a positive manner or at least try to incorporate your advice into how they play the game? Does none of them actually listen to you (not responding doesn't mean they're not listening, maybe they're just shy or don't want to type anything but they're listening, maybe?)

If the case is so that you find most of them are not responding positively with what you're trying to do, maybe a case of self-introspection is required at the part of the advice-giver instead of the advice-receiver?

But I digress. It's just my 2 cents. Like I said, I have not been in FFXIV as long as many of you so maybe my views are just skewed. Maybe my c'est la vie personality makes my views to be skewed. Maybe I am just not as good as you folks who constantly performing "in the upper levels" so my views on the matter are skewed.

Maybe as I accumulate more experience playing together in the FFXIV community my views will be changed... we'll see.

[Lucy_Pyre]

but you standing there makes you biased in thinking that the people "giving advice" are always giving them in a "polite and calm manner"

Not at all, actually. I've had friends of mine in groups give advice in a completely hostile manner, and along the same lines I've had instances myself of being extremely frustrated with someone and I myself gave advice in very hostile & aggressive manner. We're all human and even the best of intentions can be soured at times. Having said that, though, I have seen far more instances of advice being given in a polite or neutral manner with the recipient of said advice turning aggressive and hostile for no reason than I have seen the opposite side of things. As said before, XIV has a very bad problem with toxic casuals.

[Veis_Alveare]

Maybe as I accumulate more experience playing together in the FFXIV community my views will be changed... we'll see.

To be clear this is all conjecture on my part but I have heard from the moment I stepped foot in this game that the attitude surrounding personal responsibility is very different on the JP servers compared to the western ones. I believe that you may be getting a different experience than we are on NA.

Lots of things are different between the two, specifically clear rates for higher end fights. It's actually really interesting to look into. I believe when TEA was newer I saw a report at one point that indicated any single world on JP had more TEA clears than all of the Crystal data center.

In short - yeah, you're probably seeing better players, it wouldn't surprise me.

[LaughingBanana]

To be clear this is all conjecture on my part but I have heard from the moment I stepped foot in this game that the attitude surrounding personal responsibility is very different on the JP servers compared to the western ones. I believe that you may be getting a different experience than we are on NA.

Lots of things are different between the two, specifically clear rates for higher end fights. It's actually really interesting to look into. I believe when TEA was newer I saw a report at one point that indicated any single world on JP had more TEA clears than all of the Crystal data center.

In short - yeah, you're probably seeing better players, it wouldn't surprise me.

Ow, well, that could be a factor. I am playing in Tonberry, maybe the people in here are just more relaxed compared to other worlds, probably, I don't know, hahah.

[Laesha]

Except it's not the same.
You're the ones who want something from us - you want us to stop calling out bad play.

Except nowhere did I actually say this. I've said over and over again that I don't think I can make anyone do anything. That's not my goal. My goal is to say that giving unsolicited advice is rude, and that if you experience hostility from that, it has less to do with the bad player and more to do with you. I will continue to advise when I see fit as well, and I will do it politely and continue getting good results.

Also, as others have pointed out, it's cute that you think because 5 or 6 more people give you likes that it means anything. Are you okay? Do you have a stable support system in real life?

[TheRealQuah]

I don't want you to do anything. Despite your best efforts to make it about you, this isn't about you.

My opinion is that unsolicited advice is rude, period. The fact that you've stuck around here trying to convince people otherwise means you're every bit as invested in "convincing people" as everyone else is.

Now you're just deflecting and leaning on the other people who agree with you; using them to validate your position instead of attempting to make good points yourself. It reads as desperation. Once "People disagree with you!!" becomes your response in a discussion, you lose a lot of credibility. You're basically admitting your argument has no merit; and that you've been forced to resort to fallacies to keep yourself above water in this discussion.

"Your argument has no merit because so many people agree with you" is my favourite Goji take of the day.

It's amusing to me that you felt like you needed my permission. But yes, go forward and do whatever you want. I'm not responsible for how you behave in video games.

Also, you've spent enough time on these forums to know there are roughly 6-7 people who have the complete same mindset as you, and are in every single discussion like this. You knew they'd be here and you knew they'd agree with every little thing you say. I'm starting to think that's where all of your confidence comes from. You're leaning on them so hard now, I wonder how brave you'd be in a thread like this if they weren't around.

Oh my god it gets better. I'm so glad there are people who agree with me in this thread, otherwise I'd be too scared to disagree with the big bad Goji.

You know you've beat Goji in an argument because eventually he just moves on to increasingly insulting personal comments.

[Goji1639]

Dude, you realize that the overwhelming majority of players on the forums are very much casual right? The difference is they aren't toxically casual.

But hey, if you ever want to discuss things somewhere else feel free to add me on discord. Maybe we would both be marginally less vapid in another setting and I'm willing to listen to just about anyone talk about this game cause I love it. I require zero backup, I'm holding the same opinions now that I did at the start of this thread specifically because I haven't been convinced otherwise.

swiftcastholy#9999

The overwhelming majority of players in forums are not casual. Casual players don't care enough about the game to sit in here talking about it all day; if the forums were for casuals they'd be packed. No, forums are usually where a relatively small group of veterans and tryhards hang out, usually to call everyone else in the game "bad" and make themselves feel hardcore. It's as true in this game as in every other MMO.

"Your argument has no merit because so many people agree with you" is my favourite Goji take of the day.



Oh my god it gets better. I'm so glad there are people who agree with me in this thread, otherwise I'd be too scared to disagree with the big bad Goji.

You know you've beat Goji in an argument because eventually he just moves on to increasingly insulting personal comments.

Your argument has no merit if all you can do to defend it is say "b-b-b-but... some people agree with me!!"

I do have a feeling that a lot of you wouldn't be nearly as brave in general, not just regarding me, if you didn't know you had a certain amount of support.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

The overwhelming majority of players in forums are not casual. Casual players don't care enough about the game to sit in here talking about it all day; if the forums were for casuals they'd be packed. No, forums are usually where a relatively small group of veterans and tryhards hang out, usually to call everyone else in the game "bad" and make themselves feel hardcore. It's as true in this game as in every other MMO.

Not every casual being interested in the forums =/= "forums are not for casuals"

Given all the bad gameplay coddling going around here, they ARE packed with them.

[Goji1639]

Not every casual being interested in the forums =/= "forums are not for casuals"

Given all the bad gameplay coddling going around here, they ARE packed with them.

There's maybe 10 people who actively participate in these discussions. Roughly 3 are just claiming you should try to help casual players in private if you're going to, because doing it in public is rude, and roughly 6-7 of you are saying "I don't care if I'm rude because blah blah tryhard bs!"

So yea, just a typically small community of not so casual players having the same discussions that happen on every MMO board.