"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Goji1639]

As Lucy was pointing out, simply giving advice is not the same as calling someone out. In your quoted comment here, you again equate suggestions to "criticizing" people. Up above in some of your earlier comments, you're implying those who have no qualms about giving advise are non-casual tryhards who don't care about being rude.

Varying opinions are fine, and there is no problem with expressing one's thoughts. That's kind of how conversations go. However, any point you may have been trying to make is getting lost your inability to leave the gross exaggerations, blanket statements and snide comments out of the conversation. I'm not saying you're the only one doing this, but I'd say you definitely take the cake.

Honestly, if this is how you react to rather mundane viewpoints on what is & isn't acceptable in a group-setting, it's no wonder you view any unsolicited advice given in an open-setting to be hostile and rude. You've made a mountain out of a molehill, and all I can say at this point is that I strongly disagree with you. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I explained how and why it's rude; Lucy responded with "no it isn't; you're just sensitive."

I'm not sure why you're trying to act like I disregarded a real point someone made. People are being snarky and dismissive, so I'm doing it back. If they attempt to make real points I'll address them. I'm aware that you disagree with me; your bias in these little assessments of the argument you're creating makes that clear as day. You're free to agree to disagree.

And if I go into that roulette with a PvE mentor crown on then it actually is. So that entirely invalidates your whole point. Of course the majority of mentors in this game are completely in the group of players who need to be told how to play, but that's beyond the point.

I would agree that entering an instance with a Mentor crown creates a better context for offering unsolicited advice. People may still not want the advice, but the game itself has placed you in a teaching role, so your teaching is appropriate.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Offering unsolicited advice while drawing attention to the individual you are advising is "calling someone out" though. This is objectively true. One doesn't have to assign negativity to it I suppose, if they don't want to, but that is objectively what it is.

And so what if they are too sensitive for you? You are too sensitive to other peoples' game play for me? I'm oversensitive. You're oversensitive. We're all oversensitive. What now? This is where it stops becoming about helping someone else and just becomes about the advisor not being taken seriously in my opinion.



That is the exact definition of a solicited question. j/s

No random teacher will be walking around the classroom past desks, looking down at student papers, then suddenly stop and draw attention to them and let the whole class know they answered a question wrong. They kneel down, they speak in a soft voice, they ask questions and allow the student to guide themselves while coaching.

Except in this case the whole class (rest of the party) can see what the student is doing. The teacher also doesn't cover themselves and the student in a cloak so no one can see them coaching the student, everyone can see that too.

Advising someone mid-duty = kneeling, soft voice, yadda yadda
You're conflating it with

"You damn noob bla bla" = calling them out in front of the class

[Laesha]

Except in this case the whole class (rest of the party) can see what the student is doing. The teacher also doesn't cover themselves and the student in a cloak so no one can see them coaching the student, everyone can see that too.

Advising someone mid-duty = kneeling, soft voice, yadda yadda
You're conflating it with

"You damn noob bla bla" = calling them out in front of the class

No, that would be like the teacher standing next to them in front of the class and yelling "damn noob blabla"

The point is not that the class can see the teacher interacting with the student. They are in a learning environment where the teacher is not specifically calling attention to mistakes. The teacher is offering guidance to the entire class on subjects that the students are actively seeking to learn. An invisibility cloak is not necessary. Though if a teacher asks someone if they have any questions about a subject and they do not, they aren't likely to take time away from the rest of the class to address something that the student may or may not grasp.

A student teacher classroom situation would be more akin to two people who already know each other, joining a duty together as a teaching/learning opportunity, while the mentor advises the less experienced player. The other two players are merely along for the ride.

In addition, as one graduates to higher learning, professors do this less and less. They simply say "are there any questions." They solicit questions, and give answers.

[Goji1639]

If you're so confident in this to keep saying it why haven't I I recieved anything on discord from you?

Is it because you know one of the only ways you even get to make an argument is to do so within the incredibly restrictive confines of what's available to talk about on the OF? And that if I were able to bring in data to support my points that you'd not have a leg to stand on?

Seriously, you dont get to act like we would all be intimidated to talk to you without backup when you literally won't accept my invitation to do that exact thing.

The truth is you are only able to make the claims you do because you're doing so in an environment that defends you by it's very terms of service.

So if you're intimated to speak to me outside of the forums that's fine, just dont go trying to project that fear onto others.

swiftcastholy#9999

Why would I care to talk to you on discord? How exactly are the forum terms of service protecting me?

You're really flailing here, but in ways that I find interesting. Please elaborate on what difference discord would make.

And repeating that it is rude and calling people out isnt going to change things. Lets try to google this:



Providing someone advice, in the form of "Hey, you could do this and it would help." does not fall within the territory of criticism, a challenge, or forcing them to explain their actions. The issue you are running into is you are conflating criticism and calling someone out with advice.

It actually does fall into the category of criticism. Not all criticism is offered with bad intentions or an accusatory tone, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rude to do it in public.

I guess that's my post limit...

[Melichoir]

Saying "no it isn't" over and over isn't going to change anything. Try walking around criticizing people in front of their friends, family and co-workers. Let me know how much everyone "appreciates" your help.

Has nothing to do with me; I'm just explaining how the world works to you. Criticizing people in public is confrontational and rude. Learn how to interact with people if you want to be a teacher.

And repeating that it is rude and calling people out isnt going to change things. Lets try to google this:

"...transitive to criticize someone about something they have said or done and challenge them to explain it"...

Providing someone advice, in the form of "Hey, you could do this and it would help." does not fall within the territory of criticism, a challenge, or forcing them to explain their actions. The issue you are running into is you are conflating criticism and calling someone out with advice.

This would be calling someone out:
"We are wiping a ton due to F14 blasting everyone off the edge cause you keep failing the tank mechanic. Why are you dying? Are you Cooldowning or using Invuln? You grab an orb?"

This would be criticism (a critique of performance to be more accurate):
"You are currently taking to much damage. The reason why you are is because you arent using cooldowns, waiting for the healer, or pulling to much. Your gear score is also low for the content and is making it difficult to keep you alive. You should use Cooldowns more often, pull smaller, and make sure your healer is keeping up."

This would be advice:
"Hey, you should try to save rampart for that tank buster cause it hits really hard!"

The tone and nature of these 3 examples are different. You are suggesting that advising someone to use a CD at a specific time cause its a dangerous mechanic is the same as telling someone theyre messing up and wiping the group, or doing an evaluation of their performance. And youre conflating this because youre assigning an implicit nature to the situation. That to suggest or advise means that you are scrutinizing and condemning them indirectly. That is assigning negative motive to the speaker that is not present.

Again, dont be rude, but advise and help out players. If you are being reasonable and they take it negatively, thats on them. Sitting back and letting things go unsaid helps no one.

[Skivvy]

Offering unsolicited advice while drawing attention to the individual you are advising is "calling someone out" though. This is objectively true. One doesn't have to assign negativity to it I suppose, if they don't want to, but that is objectively what it is.

And so what if they are too sensitive for you? You are too sensitive to other peoples' game play for me? I'm oversensitive. You're oversensitive. We're all oversensitive. What now? This is where it stops becoming about helping someone else and just becomes about the advisor not being taken seriously in my opinion.

I really don't consider tossing out advice to be "calling someone out" as that phrase almost always has a negative connotation to it. At its base, I equate giving advice to being helpful.

The tone of text can be difficult to discern at times, and so personally I do try to be a bit more flowery with how I word things, maybe toss in a smiley or something for good measure. I know not everyone does that. I do also realize that if you're in the middle of a fight, it can be hard to get out full sentences, so it can seem a bit short and may feel like someone is just barking instructions. Some people are also just rude. So yeah, it can be a mixed bag in how people deliver said-advice, but I still don't feel that makes it wrong or rude to try as a whole.

[Laesha]

snip

and that's okay. wanting to offer advice in and of itself isn't bad or rude at all. it's the unsolicited part. Just ask.

[Lucy_Pyre]

I would agree that entering an instance with a Mentor crown creates a better context for offering unsolicited advice. People may still not want the advice, but the game itself has placed you in a teaching role, so your teaching is appropriate.

Finally, something reasonable that actually makes sense.

[Melichoir]

It actually does fall into the category of criticism. Not all criticism is offered with bad intentions or an accusatory tone, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rude to do it in public.

Under your logic, saying "Good Job" is criticism and is not discernible from any of the examples because Good Job is tacitly affirming the performance of a player. And remember, unsolicited criticism is not warranted; this would include positive feedback as well.

So dont say good job everyone at the end of a clear, cause thats a bad thing!

But seriously, Ive addressed this and gave you literally something out of a basic B google search and providing you with a short hand on "calling someone out". Ive given you 3 separate examples with different connotations and which ones fall within the realm of criticism, critique, and advice, and you are saying "Theyre all criticism cause if its not explicit, it's implicit." To advise is to criticize, and to criticize is not welcome. (And you keep shifting your meanings by saying it is calling someone out, and then falling back to a broader definition in criticism when I address that it's not calling someone out because quite literally the challenge aspect is missing)

You can say you have an issue with something between two parties that are not related. For example, if I were to be sitting there in Limsa and see a chat about having difficulty on F14 e5s and I chime in and say x, y, and z, you can say that was unsolicited and not welcome. It could be interpreted as rude. Well meaning or not, I am not part of that discussion or situation and do run the risk of being intrusive.

However, in cooperative group settings where we are all working together collectively to accomplish a goal, where we all have a common interest in completing a task in a timely and efficient manner, and those with more experience or expertise in an area provide advice to someone who is less experienced and it is apparent that they are, that is not in the same realm of context as the previous example. Particularly if the advice is that of generalities and is worded fine.

Again, it's not like we're suggesting raid strats and min max dps, but basic mechanics of both class and role in content where you have multiple participants. And the pushback is that "This is rude," because "how dare someone in a group environment where they have a stake in the outcomes say something about what Im doing, or attempt to help me out!" Hyperbolic and flippant, but that is how the counter argument comes across.

[LittleImp]

On what plane of reality is advice so frowned upon in real life?

Experienced people give others pointers all the time in recreational activities / hobbies IRL when they see someone floundering, even more-so if there are shared stakes.

Is this a regional thing perhaps? Where I'm from, these kinds of interactions are almost always seen as a positive thing.