"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Goji1639]

For things to continue as I want them to all I need is to maintain the status quo. I can keep helping people suck less and encouraging others to do the same. Meanwhile you've come in here, whined a bunch and just cemented the opinions of the people you disagree with.

What status quo? People ignore it all the time when Healers don't DPS in roulettes, or Bards don't use songs, tanks pull small, etc. I see people being "lazy" all the time, and the most common response is silence unless something goes wrong.

People who start poking their nose in when it's not needed are definitely the minority, but they're an obnoxious minority that usually just end up starting fights.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

What status quo? People ignore it all the time when Healers don't DPS in roulettes, or Bards don't use songs, tanks pull small, etc. I see people being "lazy" all the time, and the most common response is silence unless something goes wrong.

People who start poking their nose in when it's not needed are definitely the minority, but they're an obnoxious minority that usually just end up starting fights.

It's so "not needed" that the devs seen necessary to implement a Very Easy mode on solo instances, because that majority even had trouble clearing fights with only 4-5 buttons to press, due to not having someone to carry them...

Solo instances are the proof those people need to improve, because if one day they run out of people to carry them, they'll have to ask devs to make the game even more easier, or quit.

[LaughingBanana]

It's so "not needed" that the devs seen necessary to implement a Very Easy mode on solo instances, because that majority even had trouble clearing fights with only 4-5 buttons to press, due to not having someone to carry them...

How do you even know that this is the reason why they implement Very Easy mode on solo instances? How do you even confirm that "majority even had trouble clearing fights with only 4-5 buttons to press"? Do you have any data to back this up? Or a link where the developers said this specifically?

Maybe it's just there for convenience sake? And not some tacit acknowledgement that they consider most or majority of their players are foolish simpletons incapable of playing the game with 4-5 buttons to press? I mean really........... I'm sorry, but the way some of you are viewing others playing the same game as you... "woa the *majority* are fools, not me though!*, quite frankly, rubs me the wrong way.

[Veis_Alveare]

Right, and you've done exactly the same.

All i have to do is maintain my status quo as well. And the great thing is, i don't even have to do anything to do it, I guess.

Except it's not the same.

We're not asking anything of you or Goji or anyone who thinks like you guys. Frankly even if you wanted to give advice based on your attitudes towards improvement I'm inclined to think it wouldn't be very good so I'd rather you didn't.

You're the ones who want something from us - you want us to stop calling out bad play.

That's why I find this so funny, because you're here trying to make a case to end unsolicited advice or make people see it in a negative light and like... it's just been so overwhelmingly ineffective. Even in the casual hugbox that is the OF you guys are not only outnumbered in terms of actual repliers but you're also getting less in terms of people liking your posts.

People disagree with you, even here in a space that's so overwhelmingly tilted in your favor, and it's just really amusing.

If anything this has made me feel a bit less negatively towards the forums at least, since a considerable number of people apparently see through the toxic casual mindset. Cheers!

I'm sorry, but the way some of you are viewing others playing the same game as you... "woa the *majority* are fools, not me though!*, quite frankly, rubs me the wrong way.

When I can walk into any random casual content on a job in 480 at best gear and which I have only a rudimentary understanding of and walk out with a parse in the upper 5-10%... yes, I believe this indicates most people playing the game have absolutely no idea what they're doing at all. It shouldn't be possible.

[Goji1639]

Except it's not the same.

We're not asking anything of you or Goji or anyone who thinks like you guys. Frankly even if you wanted to give advice based on your attitudes towards improvement I'm inclined to think it wouldn't be very good so I'd rather you didn't.

You're the ones who want something from us - you want us to stop calling out bad play.

That's why I find this so funny, because you're here trying to make a case to end unsolicited advice or make people see it in a negative light and like... it's just been so overwhelmingly ineffective. Even in the casual hugbox that is the OF you guys are not only outnumbered in terms of actual repliers but you're also getting less in terms of people liking your posts.

People disagree with you, even here in a space that's so overwhelmingly tilted in your favor, and it's just really amusing.

If anything this has made me feel a bit less negatively towards the forums at least, since a considerable number of people apparently see through the toxic casual mindset. Cheers!

I don't want you to do anything. Despite your best efforts to make it about you, this isn't about you.

My opinion is that unsolicited advice is rude, period. The fact that you've stuck around here trying to convince people otherwise means you're every bit as invested in "convincing people" as everyone else is.

Now you're just deflecting and leaning on the other people who agree with you; using them to validate your position instead of attempting to make good points yourself. It reads as desperation. Once "People disagree with you!!" becomes your response in a discussion, you lose a lot of credibility. You're basically admitting your argument has no merit; and that you've been forced to resort to fallacies to keep yourself above water in this discussion.

[LaughingBanana]

When I can walk into any random casual content on a job in 480 at best gear and which I have only a rudimentary understanding of and walk out with a parse in the upper 5-10%... yes, I believe this indicates most people playing the game have absolutely no idea what they're doing at all. It shouldn't be possible.

I never use parsing tools since I play in PS4, but if you say so. From what I've seen playing the game thus far, I generally think the vast majority of people do know how to play the game competently or at least on passable levels, since in a vast majority of content I'm playing with others people are clearing them just fine. Of course, mishaps were happening sometimes, but people make mistakes. Do you really require other people to always perform "in the upper levels" before you stop considering them simpletons and fools?

I don't know, it seems like a tiring thing to do playing this game while thinking other people are always not up to your standards.

But again, this is just my personal view. If you like to think that way, more power to you, I guess.

[Lucy_Pyre]

I'm sorry, but the way some of you are viewing others playing the same game as you... "woa the *majority* are fools, not me though!*, quite frankly, rubs me the wrong way.

I mean, in all honestly? Not necessarily trying to be rude or condescending but an overwhelmingly large amount of this game's playerbase is utterly inept and incompetent. All it takes is to queue up for a couple of roulettes per-day to get enough first hand experience to see that. And it's not like I (or most people, I would imagine) go into duty finder groups expecting people to be on par with savage raid teams in terms of performance. All that most of us expect from others is a basic level of competence; press your glowing 1-2-3 in order and maybe press some of those other non-glowy buttons occasionally. That's really all most of us expect, and in many instances those expectations are met and we have nothing to say. Unfortunately, those already low expectations are shattered on an alarmingly high basis which leads some of us offer advice to those who very clearly need it. Yet, often even when this advice is given in a polite and calm manner we're still met with hostility and other in the group defending & white knighting the other person.

As has been said multiple times now across a plethora of threads, XIV has a very serious problem with toxicity, but it isn't in the form of elitism, it's in the form of casuals. And I'm not talking about your average player who just logs in and does whatever activity strikes their fancy at the time, because many (I would dare even say most) of those types of players at least read their abilities and have a basic understanding of their job and how it functions. No, what I'm talking about is 'casuals' in the sense that this subset of players knows quite well that they're playing poorly, yet not only do they have absolutely no intention of improving, they will actively turn hostile to anyone who attempts to help them do so or points out something in their sub-par performance that could be bettered. This situation is only worsened by the fact that a huge chunk of XIV's playerbase actively defends those with this mindset and will side with them when someone attempts to help them improve as a player.

[Veis_Alveare]

I don't want you to do anything.

I'm happy to know all of my future attempts at advising underperformers have your blessing.

And for the record, yes, being validated in the midst of a group from whom you expected nothing but contrarian responses does feel good. I'm glad to know the entire forums aren't as brainwashed as the few obnoxious blowhards around here might make them seem.

I never use parsing tools since I play in PS4, but if you say so. From what I've seen playing the game thus far, I generally think the vast majority of people do know how to play the game competently or at least on passable levels, since in a vast majority of content I'm playing with others people are clearing them just fine. Of course, mishaps were happening sometimes, but people make mistakes. Do you really require other people to always perform "in the upper levels" before you stop considering them simpletons and fools?

I don't know, it seems like a tiring thing to do playing this game while thinking other people are always not up to your standards.

But again, this is just my personal view. If you like to think that way, more power to you, I guess.

I'm aware many of us have already dug in our heels here and so take this response with as many grains of salt as you'd like but... clearing any content that isn't Ultimate/Savage/EX without wiping is literally just meeting the bare minimum expectations set forth by the game.

No one expects to need to "prog" their story dungeons and trials. A particularly spicy fight might take a try or two, sure, but the intention is that you'll clear it without any great investment made by the group. You shouldn't need food and potions.

Just because you're clearing most things doesn't mean people are performing well, or indeed even adequately. I understand you can't see the numbers and I consider this another big fail on the part of SE but if you could... oof. The number of dps being beaten by tanks or even healers alone is enough to very quickly convince anyone with eyes that so many people you encounter have no idea what's going on. You don't even really need any third party software to see this since much if it is uploaded to the internet and viewable by anyone who looks for it.

The proof of inadequacy is already here, the only reason to think people are mostly doing okay is to just not be looking at that proof.

[Goji1639]

I'm happy to know all of my future attempts at advising underperformers have your blessing.

And for the record, yes, being validated in the midst of a group from whom you expected nothing but contrarian responses does feel good. I'm glad to know the entire forums aren't as brainwashed as the few obnoxious blowhards around here might make them seem.

It's amusing to me that you felt like you needed my permission. But yes, go forward and do whatever you want. I'm not responsible for how you behave in video games.

Also, you've spent enough time on these forums to know there are roughly 6-7 people who have the complete same mindset as you, and are in every single discussion like this. You knew they'd be here and you knew they'd agree with every little thing you say. I'm starting to think that's where all of your confidence comes from. You're leaning on them so hard now, I wonder how brave you'd be in a thread like this if they weren't around.

[Veis_Alveare]

It's amusing to me that you felt like you needed my permission. But yes, go forward and do whatever you want. I'm not responsible for how you behave in video games.

Also, you've spent enough time on these forums to know there are roughly 6-7 people who have the complete same mindset as you, and are in every single discussion like this. You knew they'd be here and you knew they'd agree with every little thing you say. I'm starting to think that's where all of your confidence comes from. You're leaning on them so hard now, I wonder how brave you'd be in a thread like this if they weren't around.

Dude, you realize that the overwhelming majority of players on the forums are very much casual right? The difference is they aren't toxically casual.

But hey, if you ever want to discuss things somewhere else feel free to add me on discord. Maybe we would both be marginally less vapid in another setting and I'm willing to listen to just about anyone talk about this game cause I love it. I require zero backup, I'm holding the same opinions now that I did at the start of this thread specifically because I haven't been convinced otherwise.

swiftcastholy#9999

Don't be trying to use whatever "support" one side may be getting to either push or detract from an argument. You're both doing the same thing, just in different ways, and it's petty as hell. And lets not go grouping everyone into one tidy collection just because they may agree on some points.

I don't think agreeing on something makes anyone part of any "collection" apart from the one defined by the mutual agreement.

Of the people who I've agreed with in this thread alone I'm sure we aren't all playing at the same levels or holding all the same opinions, that doesn't mean we all still can't agree that the mindset of advice being harassment is detrimental and nonsensical.

If you think it's petty to come to a community that is advertised as overwhelmingly casual and being pleasantly surprised to find reasonable people who aren't militantly trying to enforce their playstyle then you go right ahead and do you. I remain happy that I've come across some logic here where I expected none.