General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

[Granyala]

Current WoW is just spammy. If you played during BC as a Healer, Healing was about placing the right heal on the right person with an eye towards not overhealing (Massive threat gen you couldnt dump) and mana use, since MP restoration was very limited.

I have and if you healed raids like Black Temple and Sunwell, you will have noticed that the majority were not happy with the healing design. It was extremely stressful. That's why the changed a lot of it in Wrath to make it less spammy and went to a design I very much disliked in Cataclysm and beyond: spending tiny weak ass heals as a filler and then having large CDs that make the HP bar move, barely being able to correct player errors etc.
Ugh, I felt so weak and powerless. Frustrating.

I think they could up the regular damage a bit in XIV.
Savage could be pimped by 30% (not the spike damage, mind you), lower end content I'd say by 200% + implementing more mechanics on trash, maybe even necessitating Crowd Control and deviating from these Wall to wall pulls ... (ok ok I'll show myself out now).
Seriously, non savage mobs hit like wet noodles with self esteem issues.

Not necessarily. Healing has always had that inherent flaw. If incoming damage necessitates spamming the Tier 1 Cure to keep the tank alive, then there isn't enough incoming damage to warrant spending GCDs using it. Regen and oGCDs handles that way more efficiently and with fewer button presses. If incoming damage necessitates both healers spamming AoE heals to keep the party alive, then you have TEA's Judgement Formation with both healers bottoming their MP within 45 seconds. Healing in this game just isn't built for sustained constant healing.

What if it necessitated regen AND Cure II spam?
You know, if autohits were actually a threat to the tank?

Some leveling dungeons feel that way, undergeared tanks in there are more interesting to heal than tanks in savage raids. Mobs hit like 40t trucks!

Why can't we have that in expert dungeons? Why do they have to be so easy, just so a few returnees can catch up?

As for the mana thing: you do realize that is just a balancing numbers game. Easy to fix. Very easy.

I really don't get it either. The fights in this game isn't exactly designed for healers to constantly keep on healing. The devs said they're making healing much harder now or make healing more of the focus, but the exact opposite happened

The DEVs are simply put: too chicken to do major changes abruptly.
I can understand their PoV. If the goal is to make healing more difficult and get a more centered place, they need to change the concept gradually.
If you go from 20H/80D to sth like 80H/20D too abruptly, your players won't be able to cope. I'm not talking about you or me. We as (ex, in my case) raiders would adapt quickly because we have the skills and the experience to do so. Judging by what floats around in the duty finder, 95% of the regular players do not.
They would be alienated, overtaxed, frustrated.

The DEVs must guide these players. Give them time to adapt. Agreed, so far, their approach didn't work at all.
Non savage encounters do not hit hard enough, do not hit often enough and they seem to push gimmicky mechanics you need to adhere to above core gameplay, diverting a lot of the players focus (only so much of that to go around in non coordinated groups).

[Lilseph]

What if it necessitated regen AND Cure II spam?
You know, if autohits were actually a threat to the tank?

Then that falls under the latter. Too MP costly to actually be sustainable with the current battle system. This also feeds into the next point:

Some leveling dungeons feel that way, undergeared tanks in there are more interesting to heal than tanks in savage raids. Mobs hit like 40t trucks!
Why can't we have that in expert dungeons? Why do they have to be so easy, just so a few returnees can catch up?

Player progression balance. Levelling dungeons hit extremely hard because they need to scale them to fit player progression but also be balanced for players at the max ilvl cap for the previous expansion. You also don't have all your tools, so it's significantly more challenging. Expert Dungeons have to follow this rule too. They technically can set the difficulty higher and raise the minimum ilvl requirement, but how are players who are playing catch up going to unlock the more lucrative dungeons set at i530 when the only gear they have access to are i430 dungeon gear and old dungeons that give a paltry sum of 45 tomes per clear?

As for the mana thing: you do realize that is just a balancing numbers game. Easy to fix. Very easy.

Nope. Reducing MP costs across the board means access to more MP for Healers. Every encounter would have to be adjusted to accommodate this because you're essentially giving healers nigh infinite mp if not careful.

[Granyala]

Nope. Reducing MP costs across the board means access to more MP for Healers. Every encounter would have to be adjusted to accommodate this because you're essentially giving healers nigh infinite mp if not careful.

Outside of rezzes (which should be prohibitively expensive), healers have infinite MP right now, so that point is completely moot.

You can very easily tune the mana to be sufficient for [unavoidable damage] + [desired compensation % for player error], any more compensating done on the side of the healer would drain his mana and punish the group later in the fight. This is how healing worked in WoW and it worked pretty well.

As for expert dungeon tuning: Once a new tier comes, the old tome gear can be bought for the scrip that are unlimited. So I see no reason whatsoever to not tune them to the target of the unaugmented old script gear. By halfing the cost of the old gear, newbies could very easily grind it out in the older dungeons, get ready for expert and expert could drop gear that was actually useful to them at the item level of the upgraded old tome gear.

Seriously, if you think this all can't be done, you lack imagination. The healing systems are fine, it's mostly the numbers that are tuned way too lax.

I guess you skipped Bardem's Mettle and Holminster Switch. Seriously some of you 'savage raiders' need to like gone some where, because you forgot how the rest of the game actually plays.

No I didn't. I even did it with trust.
Easy.

Bardams mettle? Don't make me laugh. The only dangerous thing in there were undergeared tanks that thought: "imma awesome, imma pull EVERYTHING™"
That's true for any leveling dungeon though and that was also true for Academy Anyder when it was freshly released. Them big fish groups hid adequately hard on mass pulls and you know what? It was more fun than it is now.

[Lilseph]

You can very easily tune the mana

I wish you good luck balancing that for every single piece of content from levelling dungeons all the way to the ultimates, and also against Piety.

As for expert dungeon tuning: Once a new tier comes, the old tome gear can be bought for the scrip that are unlimited. So I see no reason whatsoever to not tune them to the target of the unaugmented old script gear. By halfing the cost of the old gear, newbies could very easily grind it out in the older dungeons, get ready for expert and expert could drop gear that was actually useful to them at the item level of the upgraded old tome gear.

I think you misunderstood. The point was that the reason expert dungeons are so easy is that a lot of players are severely overgeared beyond the minimum. What was asked was to increase the difficulty, which would consequently require the minimum ilvl cap to increase to compensate. The Developers always have to accommodate for players who just don't have the time for extended play sessions too. Having them blocked behind a significant grind wall is going to deter them from playing.

The only dangerous thing in there were undergeared tanks that thought: "imma awesome, imma pull EVERYTHING™"

Isn't that literally what you're asking for? To make it so that healers are constantly healing? Why is that a problem now? Genuinely curious.

Edit: To clarify, I'm interested to know why having undergeared tanks that make it be more dangerous be something that's a problem. If every dungeon operated the same way where the game treats every tank as undergeared, would that solve the issue? Again, just genuinely curious.

[Granyala]

I wish you good luck balancing that for every single piece of content from levelling dungeons all the way to the ultimates, and also against Piety.

The Developers always have to accommodate for players who just don't have the time for extended play sessions too. Having them blocked behind a significant grind wall is going to deter them from playing.

Isn't that literally what you're asking for? To make it so that healers are constantly healing? Why is that a problem now? Genuinely curious.

Edit: To clarify, I'm interested to know why having undergeared tanks that make it be more dangerous be something that's a problem.

1) It's a math problem. Low level content doesn't need razor sharp balance like Ultimate does. It's okay if it is a bit easier. Focus would be on balancing max level. Piety is not a problem, because it's quantity is quite limited. Very easy to make sure players don't reach OP territory via diminishing returns for stacking the stat.

2) Well, this is a point on which we simply disagree. Tome gear is incredibly easy to farm, esp if they were to cut it's cost in half. I'm ver much against balancing the majority of content in an MMO around virtually inactive people.

3) I merely pointed out what could be dangerous in the mentioned dungeon: an undergeared tank can pull more than he can handle and easily receive so much incoming damage that a healer can no longer keep up even with heavy heal spam. It's a danger that should be present in all properly tuned content and the fun lies in finding out what the particular tank and healer can handle. Now, obviously that includes pulling too much and wiping now and then, sth. that random groups are, for some irrational reason, very much afraid of. Don't ask me why.

[Morningstar1337]

3) I merely pointed out what could be dangerous in the mentioned dungeon: an undergeared tank can pull more than he can handle and easily receive so much incoming damage that a healer can no longer keep up even with heavy heal spam. It's a danger that should be present in all properly tuned content and the fun lies in finding out what the particular tank and healer can handle. Now, obviously that includes pulling too much and wiping now and then, sth. that random groups are, for some irrational reason, very much afraid of. Don't ask me why.

A mix of impatience, opportunity cost and entitlement would be my guess. The general opinion of dungeon and raids being easy content, as been attested to in the Tales form Duty Finder thread recently, mean that they are little more than an obligation to a reward they feel entitled too. Thus they dislike anything that delays them "inevitably" getting said reward (in those cases, tomestones and/or EXP and possiblygear/GC seals). Wipes being the obvious. It also means that they run multiples to maximize their rewards, which would be deterred if most of them were made to take 30-40 min each rather than around 15-20 min.s

The thing is, SE started catering to that mindset as early as 2.X when Pharos Sirius and the difficulty were a topic of debate and whn SE nerfed the dungeon (despite being in "Expert" roulette ATT AFAIK)