General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

[Elladie]

If 1,2,3 are a combo that heals can interrupt for healers yea I'd agree with you that it would be a terrible idea to do because things can change on a dime for healers especially in 24 mans, I also do not want to see "sorry can't heal you i'm mid dps combo", however if heals don't interupt or 2,3 were both dots with different durations then what harm does it do, people's playstyles wouldn't magically change for the worse.

1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1,3,1,1,2,1,1,3,1,1,1,1,1,3,2 is more interesting than
1,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2 because you are actively thinking more in the former than the latter.

They have tried reduction to the dps kit the current system is the result, what harm would it do to do a bit of addition to this kit especially if you feel there is no difference for it as it means you'll handle it regardless.

Also know what also is unnecessary more healing tools, all 3 healers can handle ShB 'casual' content with their SB kits even savage can be handled with SB kits leaving Ultimate, the content 1% of the playerbase does as the only justifiable place for the new healing tools. So additional stuff to our healing kits you know the primary role is straight up bloat, yet you know they are going to add even more to it next expansion and definitely won't change content design to compliment it, I mean did Shadowbringers do that with the culling

But I already have 4 buttons to press that aren't a rotation. I have my DoT, I have my single target button, I have my AoE. I have Energy Drain. When I played SCH 12 months ago, I had 1 more DoT and an ability that spread the DoTs but meant I couldn't really risk using Energy Drain as well in case I needed my Aether charges to save people. I'd only be comfortable having no charges if it was about to come off cooldown. So effectively I had one more button. I'm not sure how deciding to use Bane rather than Energy Drain is so much more entertaining than popping on my DoT, hitting my direct attack as often as possible and throwing in my Energy Drain if I don't think I'll need the charge for something else?

I'm obviously missing something really significant here .... I am not sure how you can argue I'm doing less thinking, I'm doing exactly the same amount of thinking, I just don't have a button for Miasma to press. I mean, I could maybe get behind an argument that Bane would be more useful than Energy Drain and need more thought, but then you're asking unconfident healers to risk a charge on a mandatory Bane or be called incompetent .... which is pretty much why the healer DPS kit changed in the first place

[Crushnight]

See?

And I'm not going to bother repeating myself if this is the attitude I'm faced with.
Summary: AST old card effects cannot be balanced, period. That's objective.
The number of AST players, that's subjective. You can say "numbers are facts" but they only prove the subjective opinion of players. Objective reality isn't a democracy, don't use an argument of popularity to attempt to prove objectivity. Otherwise we'll be claiming Trump is objectively a good president...
More players may have enjoyed playing with a messier RNG system that held back healer balance and resulted in a stricter meta, but that doesn't mean it was a superior system.

Physical pain... give me a break. I play Ninja.

If current Ast can be balanced so too could the old, both are rng systems meaning you have to try to balance around the average that they give adjusting for if peaks get too high or valleys too low, so your wrong it is not Objectively impossible to balance the old card system, it is objectively harder to balance the old card system. That is the difference you are failing to crasp.

Did you read my last paragraph? I straight up say those facts show the subjective side of the playerbase but they are facts, and if shown those facts with no bias, you would think there was a problem with Ast yet it is not a number issue but something deeper.

Lastly I played nin (purple parse) throughout SB only reason I dropped was I went from EU servers to NA servers for raid group (while living in UK) yet I still did TEA prog on it got to half way through BJ+CC so a lot of reopeners when nin is at its busiest yet that never ever gave me the issue redoing optimal Ast's opener does in the same timeframe. I play exclusively on controller which is where most people who say they get pain from playing Ast comes from and it is unanimously Sleeve Draw and the targeting system that get cited for why.

High Apm is not an issue if spaced out well, nin is a good example of it, Ast is a good example when High Apm is not spaced out well.

[Seraphor]

If current Ast can be balanced so too could the old, both are rng systems meaning you have to try to balance around the average that they give adjusting for if peaks get too high or valleys too low, so your wrong it is not Objectively impossible to balance the old card system, it is objectively harder to balance the old card system. That is the difference you are failing to crasp.

Did you read my last paragraph? I straight up say those facts show the subjective side of the playerbase but they are facts, and if shown those facts with no bias, you would think there was a problem with Ast yet it is not a number issue but something deeper.

Lastly I played nin (purple parse) throughout SB only reason I dropped was I went from EU servers to NA servers for raid group (while living in UK) yet I still did TEA prog on it got to half way through BJ+CC so a lot of reopeners when nin is at its busiest yet that never ever gave me the issue redoing optimal Ast's opener does in the same timeframe. I play exclusively on controller which is where most people who say they get pain from playing Ast comes from and it is unanimously Sleeve Draw and the targeting system that get cited for why.

High Apm is not an issue if spaced out well, nin is a good example of it, Ast is a good example when High Apm is not spaced out well.

The difference is the new RNG system has a single output, a direct DPS buff.
AST still have a RNG system to play around with, but the effect of this on the party is consistent, it becomes a job mechanic rather than a party mechanic.

The old system was an RNG system that impacted the entire party, which is why you were forced to fish for Balances to produce a consistent output.

The party do not care about your RNG minigame, they just want DPS.

And I'm not saying the new system is perfect. They most certainly can streamline the mechanics so that APM is spread out, but this can be done with the new superior card effects, and doesn't require the old RNG mess.

[BlitzAceRush]

On Gilg it's a toss up for Tank or Healer in need, rarely see DPS but it can happen. Yes their system swaps so fast sometimes that it doesn't display correctly but that's not proof that healers are more in need as I've had the reverse happen.
Healer in need, que as healer, 5 min wait, swap to Tank, instant pop.
At the very start of ShB with all the healer Drama, yes Healer in need seemed to be more present, but two or so weeks after launch things went back to normal.

[Maeka]

Meh.

I don't want a complex rotation on my healer, because quite frankly, in an 8-man fight, I need to watch what the other healer is doing, watch what the boss is doing, keep my eyes on HP meters, etc.

I don't want a DPS style rotation while doing all of that junk. Any DPS that I throw out is just filler when I have no healing currently needing done, and this varies, wildly group to group, fight to fight.

Some fights and some groups, I can cast Glare or Malefic or what-not 10, 12 times in a row. Other times, I can barely get one or two in before someone else is needing a heal. Or there are other things to do, especially if I'm on AST. Sorry, I'm not a Savage Raider Pro who can throw cards out in-between DPS casts constantly. Maybe my fingers aren't that fast. Maybe I need a split second to think about what the card is and what to do with it.

God Forbid everybody not be awesome Savage Raiders like the people wanting complex healer rotations.

Healer DPS is fine, but I don't want healers spending more attention to more complex rotations and taking their eyes off of HP meters and such, as it is you got healers who get so absorbed in doing the whole 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 thing that I end up doing 90% of the healing in some 8 man fights because the other healer is too busy spamming Broil/Malefic/Glare. I have literally watched people dying and I see their DPS spell popping again and again on their cast bar, and I'm like "uh, hello? My MP is at like 3,000 you going to help or what?"

Nope.

Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic.

I have also literally watched a DPS die... I use swift+rez and a 2nd DPS dies not too long after and... one DPS spell.... 2 DPS spells.....Three DPS spells... I'm like "um, you gonna rez sometime today?"

Nope.

DPS DPS DPS DPS.

[Hazama999]

I feel like I wouldn't care so much about my 2-3 buttons for DPSing as a healer if the healing was more engaging... That said, I'm not entirely sure how this could be made so without some big changes. One idea I had floating about was of different kinds of healing damage which would necessitate different kinds of skills. In real life, there are instances where different protocols or algorithms are followed depending on how a patient presents. Here's a simple example for a patient presentation with a possible acute coronary syndrome:



Now before you roast me alive, I know the comparison is not perfect. In-game, I find it unlikely that you'd be triaging someone for a possible myocardial infarction in the middle of combat but the algorithm serves to illustrate the kind of decision-making that often goes into... well, medicine. I am also not saying that the nuances of real-life medical care should somehow find their way into FFXIV, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't yearning for a bit more complexity. As others have pointed out, it feels like you're just making bars up when they go down and I find that much too reductionistic to be engaging. There is some modicum of complexity to be had right now since you also gotta know when damage is dished out... but that's more of an encounter design consideration rather than the healing itself.

[Jaelommiss]

One idea I had floating about was of different kinds of healing damage which would necessitate different kinds of skills.

Suppose they bring back TP. Optimal rotations for most classes will be adjusted to be either MP or TP negative. Weaker rotations would exist that are MP/TP neutral. Instead of just managing HP, healers are also responsible for maintaining party MP and TP. So long as healers keep HP from reaching 0 no one will die, but party dps will drop dramatically if MP or TP run out.

It'd be a massive deviation from how healing is generally approached, but I could see it making the game more interesting. Some classes (BLM) would be entirely self contained. Others (DRK) would be able to dump excess resources into damage. I expect there would be backlash from tanks and dps whose optimal rotations would become dependent on their healer.

[MirronTulaxia]

I feel like I wouldn't care so much about my 2-3 buttons for DPSing as a healer if the healing was more engaging... That said, I'm not entirely sure how this could be made so without some big changes. One idea I had floating about was of different kinds of healing damage which would necessitate different kinds of skills. In real life, there are instances where different protocols or algorithms are followed depending on how a patient presents. Here's a simple example for a patient presentation with a possible acute coronary syndrome:



Now before you roast me alive, I know the comparison is not perfect. In-game, I find it unlikely that you'd be triaging someone for a possible myocardial infarction in the middle of combat but the algorithm serves to illustrate the kind of decision-making that often goes into... well, medicine. I am also not saying that the nuances of real-life medical care should somehow find their way into FFXIV, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't yearning for a bit more complexity. As others have pointed out, it feels like you're just making bars up when they go down and I find that much too reductionistic to be engaging. There is some modicum of complexity to be had right now since you also gotta know when damage is dished out... but that's more of an encounter design consideration rather than the healing itself.

Honestly I like the idea of having to watch different gauges for healers. One of the things I was toying with in a different game with elemental affinities and such was different elemental healing too, which makes it important to pay attention to the element you use. While something like that doesn't work here they could certainly have multiple types of healing to keep track of.

Though at the same time I do worry a bit about the idea of Healers being responsible for MP, it certainly seems like a decent change.

[GrimGale]

One idea I had floating about was of different kinds of healing damage which would necessitate different kinds of skills.

There ARE different damages to heal currently in the game. Also known as dispellable debuffs. But it's a mechanic that barely happens anymore. We used to have a fairy that had the ability to cleanse debuffs to the whole party. It was removed. Bard has a skill that prevents debuffs. We have had Esuna for a long time. We barely use it anymore. (Though it is required for the current Savage tier final boss in one or two of the twenty mechanics)

In FFXI there were a plethora of Bar- Spells that would protect you and your party from specific ailments and incoming elemental damage. Currently we have skills that mitigate magic damage (Even though we have no in-game feed back as to wether the damage we're taking is magical or physical.)

So it's a mixed bag. Clearly the game can have those "face incoming events with A or B" but they don't happen often enough to be given much attention.

[Billythepancake]

But I already have 4 buttons to press that aren't a rotation. I have my DoT, I have my single target button, I have my AoE. I have Energy Drain. When I played SCH 12 months ago, I had 1 more DoT and an ability that spread the DoTs but meant I couldn't really risk using Energy Drain as well in case I needed my Aether charges to save people. I'd only be comfortable having no charges if it was about to come off cooldown. So effectively I had one more button. I'm not sure how deciding to use Bane rather than Energy Drain is so much more entertaining than popping on my DoT, hitting my direct attack as often as possible and throwing in my Energy Drain if I don't think I'll need the charge for something else?

I'm obviously missing something really significant here .... I am not sure how you can argue I'm doing less thinking, I'm doing exactly the same amount of thinking, I just don't have a button for Miasma to press. I mean, I could maybe get behind an argument that Bane would be more useful than Energy Drain and need more thought, but then you're asking unconfident healers to risk a charge on a mandatory Bane or be called incompetent .... which is pretty much why the healer DPS kit changed in the first place

You're missing Miasma II and shadowflare as well, which both also had single target applications, as well as shadowflare offering mitigation with the slow it provided. You also had the SB version of cleric stance, which you wanted to use on CD if possible, and fey wind if you want to include that into the mix.

As for asking unconfident healers to do anything or calling them bad, I don't think I've ever run into anyone, outside of savage, that got mad at a healer for playing unoptimally, ever. I just don't know where people meet these people