Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Kabooa]

I could be all for this, but I hope you've made peace with the ramifications that will have on intra-caster balance. That is to say, there will no longer be any justification for red mage and summoner to not be doing black mage level dps.[/URL]

Yeah, I'm like 100% okay with this. There's nothing more exciting than having a race with someone else, and there's honestly no better teacher than getting crushed outright - Creating scenarios where this doesn't lead to jobs being obsolete would be the best case to me.

I'm also not responsible for other people.

There was a point, maybe during Heavensward where I might have said one job was harder than the other, but after trapping in Sigmascape across a multitude of roles and jobs, and I've settled on 'Every job has their challenges'.

You are tunnel visioned into Savage.

Savage and Ultimate are the only relevant places for discussion, because nothing else stresses the battle system.

[Silverquick]

Savage and Ultimate are the only relevant places for discussion, because nothing else stresses the battle system.

Well then they need to stop designing Savage and Ultimate in a way that caters to the strengths of one single job. Which means they are going to have to stop making them so movement intensive.

Then the other jobs will shine the same way they do in all other forms of content.

That again is a content balance issue, not a class balance issue and has little to do with the SMN. And SMN would stop dominating that one single type of content wouldn't they?

Oh but wait then they wouldn't be any fun would they? So in other words... it is NOT the ONLY thing that stresses out the system... but rather the ONLY type of content which specifically caters to the strengths of the SMN job (ie, a Pet +DoT job). It just happens to be the only thing that is HARD for all OTHER jobs.

[ReiMakoto]

Well then they need to stop designing Savage and Ultimate in a way that caters to the strengths of one single job. Which means they are going to have to stop making them so movement intensive.

Then the other jobs will shine the same way they do in all other forms of content.

That again is a content balance issue, not a class balance issue and has little to do with the SMN. And SMN would stop dominating that one single type of content wouldn't they?

Oh but wait then they wouldn't be any fun would they? So in other words... it is NOT the ONLY thing that stresses out the system... but rather the ONLY type of content which specifically caters to the strengths of the SMN job (ie, a Pet +DoT job). It just happens to be the only thing that is HARD for all OTHER jobs.

I am willing to put money on the fact if people putting up logs for savage were to bother putting up logs for dungeons ect SMN would come out on top in those as well, their cleave is insane as is their general damage, movement isn't why theyre the strongest in savage, in 90%+ range everyone has as close to 100% uptime as possible, its just a matter of the facts its numbers are overtuned. Your sample size for dungeons is actually so small its hardly relevant, there is nothing intrisic to smns pet/ dot design that makes it more powerful in savage, its just its numbers are high.

Edit: For context your're saying the DOT and pet autos are what's making smn so strong, they make up ~20-25% of smns total damage in a fight, which is about the same that Bards Auto's +Dots do in a fight, SMN is just essentially a caster with autoattacks, this is not a case of its class design or archetype only being good for savage, its just a case of number overtune

[Silverquick]

I am willing to put money on the fact if people putting up logs for savage were to bother putting up logs for dungeons ect SMN would come out on top in those as well,

They are already,

Check out the actual top DPS numbers put out by SMNs in End Game dungeons. Those are wayyyy higher than any normal player puts out. So they obviously are being done by some seriously geared up players.

[NaiXizi]

They are already,

Check out the actual top DPS numbers put out by SMNs in End Game dungeons. Those are wayyyy higher than any normal player puts out. So they obviously are being done by some seriously geared up players.

Oh, hello, thank you for viewing my article. My article is somewhat subjective, and some inadequacies please forgive me.
But I'm not sure, please check the following.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=69
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=70
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=71
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=72
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=DPS&boss=1050

You know, SMN has the characteristics of higher resurrection and mobility, why he will compete with BLM and SAM without resurrection and mobility conditions.

[TheRealQuah]

Well then they need to stop designing Savage and Ultimate in a way that caters to the strengths of one single job. Which means they are going to have to stop making them so movement intensive.

Then the other jobs will shine the same way they do in all other forms of content.

That again is a content balance issue, not a class balance issue and has little to do with the SMN. And SMN would stop dominating that one single type of content wouldn't they?

Oh but wait then they wouldn't be any fun would they? So in other words... it is NOT the ONLY thing that stresses out the system... but rather the ONLY type of content which specifically caters to the strengths of the SMN job (ie, a Pet +DoT job). It just happens to be the only thing that is HARD for all OTHER jobs.

false, i know people who dont do savage nor ultimate but actually complainng and care about their damage, theres some people who complaining in this forum dont have a trace of doing savage nor ultimate, casual player also complaining againt time they need to finish a dungeon because of their job lower dps etc etc, so sorry, its not only high tier players matter.

if you are talking the NEED to care about damage then theres no need to... why? all class can clear them even in week 1...

If you have a casual player complaining that it's taking too long to finish their dungeon, then it isn't because they went as RDM instead of BLM. It's because they're trash. Same goes for people locking classes out of content. The reason they can't clear isn't because they have a RDM in the party, it's because they suck. A competent RDM is better than 95% of every other DPS player.

Job balance should be done around the hardest content and the best players in the game. It's not elitist. It's not ignoring the larger casual playerbase. It's how it's done in every game, and is the only way it can be done. Imagine if they balanced classes around Barry "25 minute Expert Roulette" Casual - competent players would clear everything in 5 minutes.

SMN is overpowered. SE know it is and agree, that's why they nerfed it, they just didn't go far enough. It's nothing to do with fight design. The top clear in the world for Shiva currently has both a SMN and BLM. Guess what, the BLM has more uptime.

[Silverquick]

Oh, hello, thank you for viewing my article. My article is somewhat subjective, and some inadequacies please forgive me.
But I'm not sure, please check the following.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=69
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=70
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=71
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=72
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=DPS&boss=1050

You know, SMN has the characteristics of higher resurrection and mobility, why he will compete with BLM and SAM without resurrection and mobility conditions.

It is not that your argument or rather that your post is inaccurate, it is that you misunderstood the actual arguement being made.

The arguement being made is not that SMN doesn't dominate Savage and Movement intensive content... it is that it does NOT dominate non movement intensive combat where other jobs come out on top quite significantly. Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue as both jobs you named actually come out on top of Summoner in DPS output in various types of non Savage, non movement intensive instances, or rather instances that do not require an extreme type of movement.

Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue... but rather a content balance issue that caters specifically to SMN strengths where the other jobs were never designed to be able to handle that, as those other jobs have no problems in general beating the SMN.

In other words all Savage/Ultimate content is flawed in its execution, as if they specifically designed a situation that would pose a difficult challenge for ALL other jobs except the Summoner because of the way the job works... as evidenced by the fact it is not dominating either Dungeons or Alliance Raids and even a lot of Normal 8 man Eden Raids.

So the SMN only dominates ONE specific TYPE of combat. Any instance without an extreme amount of movement and the SMN loses... in some cases BADLY.

[NaiXizi]

It is not that your argument or rather that your post is inaccurate, it is that you misunderstood the actual arguement being made.

The arguement being made is not that SMN doesn't dominate Savage and Movement intensive content... it is that it does NOT dominate non movement intensive combat where other jobs come out on top quite significantly. Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue as both jobs you named actually come out on top of Summoner in DPS output in various types of non Savage, non movement intensive instances, or rather instances that do not require an extreme type of movement.

Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue... but rather a content balance issue that caters specifically to SMN strengths where the other jobs were never designed to be able to handle that, as those other jobs have no problems in general beating the SMN.

In other words all Savage/Ultimate content is flawed in its execution, as if they specifically designed a situation that would pose a difficult challenge for ALL other jobs except the Summoner because of the way the job works... as evidenced by the fact it is not dominating either Dungeons or Alliance Raids and even a lot of Normal 8 man Eden Raids.

So the SMN only dominates ONE specific TYPE of combat. Any instance without an extreme amount of movement and the SMN loses... in some cases BADLY.

Well, what you said is a bit reasonable. I don't know how to reply, but I still feel a bit wrong.
It is better that we eliminate all external factors and just discuss the characteristics of each dps (I am not familiar with physical melee dps, there are no examples, and other familiar people can add)
BLM: Poor mobility, without team assistance and resurrection, but in exchange for high firepower.
SMN: Good mobility, with team support and resurrection, but also high firepower, and the gap with BLM is small.
RDM: Poor mobility, with team assistance and resurrection, medium firepower.
Bard: Good mobility, team support, no resurrection, low firepower.
Dancer: good mobility, with team support and powerful single player support, middle and lower firepower
Machinist: Good mobility, no team assistance, mid-range firepower.
It is not difficult to see that the balance between various occupations is divided into many modules
Mobility, Firepower, Team Assistance, Revival, Manipulation, etc.
There will be a balance between these several. Although no one can achieve an absolute balance, it is clear that there are several occupations that highlight several problems.
The problems with Bard and SMN arise.
So I use these to suggest that the firepower or mobility of debuff SMN to maintain this relative balance can not allow SMN to monopolize many professional characteristics advantages.
Of course Bard needs to boost his firepower to make him similar to Dancer.
I think we can all look at the problem from these perspectives.