Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[NaiXizi]

They are already,

Check out the actual top DPS numbers put out by SMNs in End Game dungeons. Those are wayyyy higher than any normal player puts out. So they obviously are being done by some seriously geared up players.

Oh, hello, thank you for viewing my article. My article is somewhat subjective, and some inadequacies please forgive me.
But I'm not sure, please check the following.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=69
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=70
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=71
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=72
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=DPS&boss=1050

You know, SMN has the characteristics of higher resurrection and mobility, why he will compete with BLM and SAM without resurrection and mobility conditions.

[TheRealQuah]

Well then they need to stop designing Savage and Ultimate in a way that caters to the strengths of one single job. Which means they are going to have to stop making them so movement intensive.

Then the other jobs will shine the same way they do in all other forms of content.

That again is a content balance issue, not a class balance issue and has little to do with the SMN. And SMN would stop dominating that one single type of content wouldn't they?

Oh but wait then they wouldn't be any fun would they? So in other words... it is NOT the ONLY thing that stresses out the system... but rather the ONLY type of content which specifically caters to the strengths of the SMN job (ie, a Pet +DoT job). It just happens to be the only thing that is HARD for all OTHER jobs.

false, i know people who dont do savage nor ultimate but actually complainng and care about their damage, theres some people who complaining in this forum dont have a trace of doing savage nor ultimate, casual player also complaining againt time they need to finish a dungeon because of their job lower dps etc etc, so sorry, its not only high tier players matter.

if you are talking the NEED to care about damage then theres no need to... why? all class can clear them even in week 1...

If you have a casual player complaining that it's taking too long to finish their dungeon, then it isn't because they went as RDM instead of BLM. It's because they're trash. Same goes for people locking classes out of content. The reason they can't clear isn't because they have a RDM in the party, it's because they suck. A competent RDM is better than 95% of every other DPS player.

Job balance should be done around the hardest content and the best players in the game. It's not elitist. It's not ignoring the larger casual playerbase. It's how it's done in every game, and is the only way it can be done. Imagine if they balanced classes around Barry "25 minute Expert Roulette" Casual - competent players would clear everything in 5 minutes.

SMN is overpowered. SE know it is and agree, that's why they nerfed it, they just didn't go far enough. It's nothing to do with fight design. The top clear in the world for Shiva currently has both a SMN and BLM. Guess what, the BLM has more uptime.

[Silverquick]

Oh, hello, thank you for viewing my article. My article is somewhat subjective, and some inadequacies please forgive me.
But I'm not sure, please check the following.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=69
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=70
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=71
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=72
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=DPS&boss=1050

You know, SMN has the characteristics of higher resurrection and mobility, why he will compete with BLM and SAM without resurrection and mobility conditions.

It is not that your argument or rather that your post is inaccurate, it is that you misunderstood the actual arguement being made.

The arguement being made is not that SMN doesn't dominate Savage and Movement intensive content... it is that it does NOT dominate non movement intensive combat where other jobs come out on top quite significantly. Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue as both jobs you named actually come out on top of Summoner in DPS output in various types of non Savage, non movement intensive instances, or rather instances that do not require an extreme type of movement.

Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue... but rather a content balance issue that caters specifically to SMN strengths where the other jobs were never designed to be able to handle that, as those other jobs have no problems in general beating the SMN.

In other words all Savage/Ultimate content is flawed in its execution, as if they specifically designed a situation that would pose a difficult challenge for ALL other jobs except the Summoner because of the way the job works... as evidenced by the fact it is not dominating either Dungeons or Alliance Raids and even a lot of Normal 8 man Eden Raids.

So the SMN only dominates ONE specific TYPE of combat. Any instance without an extreme amount of movement and the SMN loses... in some cases BADLY.

[NaiXizi]

It is not that your argument or rather that your post is inaccurate, it is that you misunderstood the actual arguement being made.

The arguement being made is not that SMN doesn't dominate Savage and Movement intensive content... it is that it does NOT dominate non movement intensive combat where other jobs come out on top quite significantly. Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue as both jobs you named actually come out on top of Summoner in DPS output in various types of non Savage, non movement intensive instances, or rather instances that do not require an extreme type of movement.

Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue... but rather a content balance issue that caters specifically to SMN strengths where the other jobs were never designed to be able to handle that, as those other jobs have no problems in general beating the SMN.

In other words all Savage/Ultimate content is flawed in its execution, as if they specifically designed a situation that would pose a difficult challenge for ALL other jobs except the Summoner because of the way the job works... as evidenced by the fact it is not dominating either Dungeons or Alliance Raids and even a lot of Normal 8 man Eden Raids.

So the SMN only dominates ONE specific TYPE of combat. Any instance without an extreme amount of movement and the SMN loses... in some cases BADLY.

Well, what you said is a bit reasonable. I don't know how to reply, but I still feel a bit wrong.
It is better that we eliminate all external factors and just discuss the characteristics of each dps (I am not familiar with physical melee dps, there are no examples, and other familiar people can add)
BLM: Poor mobility, without team assistance and resurrection, but in exchange for high firepower.
SMN: Good mobility, with team support and resurrection, but also high firepower, and the gap with BLM is small.
RDM: Poor mobility, with team assistance and resurrection, medium firepower.
Bard: Good mobility, team support, no resurrection, low firepower.
Dancer: good mobility, with team support and powerful single player support, middle and lower firepower
Machinist: Good mobility, no team assistance, mid-range firepower.
It is not difficult to see that the balance between various occupations is divided into many modules
Mobility, Firepower, Team Assistance, Revival, Manipulation, etc.
There will be a balance between these several. Although no one can achieve an absolute balance, it is clear that there are several occupations that highlight several problems.
The problems with Bard and SMN arise.
So I use these to suggest that the firepower or mobility of debuff SMN to maintain this relative balance can not allow SMN to monopolize many professional characteristics advantages.
Of course Bard needs to boost his firepower to make him similar to Dancer.
I think we can all look at the problem from these perspectives.

[Silverquick]

Well, what you said is a bit reasonable. I don't know how to reply, but I still feel a bit wrong.

BLM: Poor mobility, without team assistance and resurrection, but in exchange for high firepower.
SMN: Good mobility, with team support and resurrection, but also high firepower, and the gap with BLM is small.
RDM: Poor mobility, with team assistance and resurrection, medium firepower.

So I use these to suggest that the firepower or mobility of debuff SMN to maintain this relative balance can not allow SMN to monopolize many professional characteristics advantages.
Of course Bard needs to boost his firepower to make him similar to Dancer.
I think we can all look at the problem from these perspectives.

Thats the part you actually have wrong. It should read this...

BLM: Poor mobility, without team assistance and resurrection, but in exchange for high firepower.
SMN: Good mobility, with LOW team support but has resurrection, but Moderate firepower. (This is what those things I linked actually showed, it does not have "high" firepower except in High Mobility situations where other jobs CAN'T use their actual high firepower)
RDM: Moderate mobility (exactly between BLM and SMN), with Moderate team support, including Buffs (Embolden), Dual Casted Heals, Dual Casted Raises, medium firepower.

You overstated Summoner and understated Red Mage.

[ReiMakoto]

Thats the part you actually have wrong. It should read this...

BLM: Poor mobility, without team assistance and resurrection, but in exchange for high firepower.
SMN: Good mobility, with LOW team support but has resurrection, but Moderate firepower. (This is what those things I linked actually showed, it does not have "high" firepower except in High Mobility situations where other jobs CAN'T use their actual high firepower)
RDM: Moderate mobility (exactly between BLM and SMN), with Moderate team support, including Buffs (Embolden), Dual Casted Heals, Dual Casted Raises, medium firepower.

You overstated Summoner and understated Red Mage.

This is untrue summoner does have high firepower, when you reach 90+% classes are not being harmed by movement at all cos, everything has near 100% uptime and mobility, any high end black mage parse has used instant casts to be mobile exactly where they need to be, SMNs numbers are just overtuned.

This is why in a fight like ramuh, even at 99th percentile they are only just beaten by black mage, even though ramuh has basically 100% uptime on all classes and no adds to pad on

[Silverquick]

This is untrue summoner does have high firepower, when you reach 90+% classes are not being harmed by movement at all cos, everything has near 100% uptime and mobility, any high end black mage parse has used instant casts to be mobile exactly where they need to be, SMNs numbers are just overtuned.

This is why in a fight like ramuh, even at 99th percentile they are only just beaten by black mage, even though ramuh has basically 100% uptime on all classes and no adds to pad on

Incorrect,

If SMN had "high firepower" it would be ruling over all of those instances I already linked on the first page... yet it is NOT doing so.
In fact in some cases its towards the bottom of the list. That can only mean one thing.

It does not have "high firepower"... its got moderate firepower. If it had high firepower in ALL situations you might be correct, but its only got "high firepower" in ONE specific type of combat. That specific type of combat is combat that requires High Mobility where the other jobs cannot utilize theirs to their potential.

[Kabooa]

Incorrect,

If SMN had "high firepower" it would be ruling over all of those instances I already linked on the first page... yet it is NOT doing so.
In fact in some cases its towards the bottom of the list. That can only mean one thing.

It does not have "high firepower"... its got moderate firepower. If it had high firepower in ALL situations you might be correct, but its only got "high firepower" in ONE specific type of combat. That specific type of combat is combat that requires High Mobility where the other jobs cannot utilize theirs to their potential.

Ramuh is not high mobility. It's the closest we have to a caster dummy fight, where the 'everyone else's' dummy fight is E7. All of Ramuh's movement is easily covered by non-RNG movement options.

[ReiMakoto]

Incorrect,

If SMN had "high firepower" it would be ruling over all of those instances I already linked on the first page... yet it is NOT doing so.
In fact in some cases its towards the bottom of the list. That can only mean one thing.

It does not have "high firepower"... its got moderate firepower. If it had high firepower in ALL situations you might be correct, but its only got "high firepower" in ONE specific type of combat. That specific type of combat is combat that requires High Mobility where the other jobs cannot utilize theirs to their potential.

I have already explained to you earlier which I think you aggreed with me with that if people actually bothered to compete for rank in casual content then smn would dominate there, its just they dont, most logs go up for that content by accident.

Also, I don't know how many times this needs to be explained to you, the mobility point you're making doesn't make any sense!, SAM and the other Melees are not missing any attacks or positionals due to mobility in most savage fights at the high end, hell neither is black mage, so if you're not missing anything, then you're on equal footing with SMN then its just a dps race... which SMN is winning. Do you understand or do I need to explain this on an even more basic level? In savage at high percentiles ALL jobs get near 100% uptime/ DON'T miss anything based off of mobility, so it is just a DPS race at that point, which smn is winning even in fights where it can't play to its strengths such as multidotting. Do you understand?

[NaiXizi]

Incorrect,

If SMN had "high firepower" it would be ruling over all of those instances I already linked on the first page... yet it is NOT doing so.
In fact in some cases its towards the bottom of the list. That can only mean one thing.

It does not have "high firepower"... its got moderate firepower. If it had high firepower in ALL situations you might be correct, but its only got "high firepower" in ONE specific type of combat. That specific type of combat is combat that requires High Mobility where the other jobs cannot utilize theirs to their potential.

Talking about professional balance is always in raid, because the need for strict DPS CHECK and strict mechanism processing will make the problem of professional balance more prominent.
** In addition to raid, the dungeon and 24, DPS CHECK is very loose, and the mechanism is simple. Basically, you can play it casually. Even if the dungeon passes for a longer time, it will not make people pay attention to professional balance, and no one will block some professions from letting in.
** Therefore, using the dungeon and 24 to demonstrate, I think it is not rigorous.